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As said in the title, I recently started playing Warmachine as Cygnar. I play with eCaine, ATGM + UA, Reinholt, Defender, B13, Hunter (Marshalled), and the ATGM solo. However nothing I have ever really does anything I simply get blast templated before I can even get a volley out... I've used Caine to land a few assassination runs, but everything I have is usually dead when this happens. I feel like I could just play with Caine as much of my other units don't do anything. I know Caine is high Risk/Reward but is this how its supposed to be?

There is one hell of a learning curve with Warmachine. It is not a forgiving game at all. Pretty much one or two mistakes and your done. The best advice I can give you is to keep trying. Every time you loose try and figure out what you did wrong and correct it for next time.

First, it looks like you're running a really small game -- 25pts or so? You might want to beef up the game size just a bit.

Second, you're whole list is comprised of very low arm models excluding the defender. If your regular opponents know you're running a whole bunch of arm 11 you're going to see quite a few Khador Mortars. My best advice in that scenario is to find a way to squeeze in a Journeyman so you can bump your Gun Mage's Arm to 14 with Arcane Shield -- that will help you survive a good deal more blast damage. Alternatively, you could consider swapping in a higher Arm melee unit to go with Caine, like Precursor Knights with their UA.

WIthout changing your list at all, I'm not sure there is much I can suggest. You've piled in lots of high def, low arm models, so auto hitting spells and blast damage are going to be you're bane in that setup.

Try running with pCaine. You have his first two tiers already, which will grant you some nice bonuses. pCaine has an effective threat range of 23in (move 7, rng 12+4 from snipe). This means if they are in range to shoot at you, he is range to shoot at them. After dropping the mortar crews, just teleport backwards towards your ATGM. Personally I would drop reinholdt, as caine will be moving around the battlefield constantly, and reinholdt probably wont be able to keep up.

Cygnar's only real weakness is that most of their units are high def/low arm, except for a few melee units, but even storm knights can be killed by mortar fire. Fortunately, cygnar usually has the ability to hit long range mortar weapons with their superior snipe spell.

I would suggest to drop Reinholdt, for the reasons KingKodo said, and the GunMage solo.

Then pick up the Journeyman and give him the Hunter.

Also, maybe you are not using B13 effectively?
They have a lot of tools, and if you are not using something they have, you are not getting the most out of them.

As an example, I use the Withershadow Combine in my Cryx, and sometimes I forget to use the Puppet Master re-roll ability.

Also a good thought, keep everything as spread out as possible. While you are not always able to do so many people bunch up their units more than they need to. Take the black 13 for example with their leader in the middle the other two can be as much as 9" away from him. You can have the 3 of them spread out as much as 19" apart.

^^^ Especially with cygnar, who have notoriously small groups of units due to their normally high point cost. You should spread out your army to the point that only one model will be hit by an aoe shot. Keep every model 4in from the next, at least.

I like the idea of marshalling the hunter with the ATGM, this grants it snipe if you want, giving it awesome threat rng against their heavies. Plus, it will qualify you for pCaine's tier 1 and 2 bonuses, which are excellent for ATGM armies.

What problems are you having in particular? Its hard to say much about a list other than what one personally likes or dislikes without knowing what aspects of it are giving you trouble.
I know if it were me, i would drop all of the gun mages since those pow 10s never kill anything for me but many people love them so its all personal taste until we know specifics.

Funny. I'd suggest you *reduce* your points to 15.

KingKodo's suggestion is excellent for what you seem to have.

Your list is fragile, but very good for opening a path to deliver a warjack to the enemy caster. The ATGM push models out of position particularly well

Pow 10 is perfectly fine against most infantry - an average roll damages ARM 17.

Can you give any details of what you normally face?

Actually, at pow 10 an average roll gives about a 42% chance of damaging an ARM 17 model since you need to roll an 8, for an 18 total, which 1 over its armor to damage something.

In general, the 2d6 will roll around 7 on average or 7 and greater 58% of the time, a bit over half.

So use that rule of 7 to make judgements on how a roll can go. If the total stat +7 (the average 2d6 roll) doesn't meet your needs, don't count on it succeeding and find some way to boost it, or use sheer volume of attacks to get a result.

Vertrucio wrote:Actually...

I yield to the math.
Instead: Look at the number of ARM 16+ you're likely to see. Don't stress about a pow 10. Look at the other things they can do.

Well thus far I have faced Menoth, which did not end well as Zealots burned my gun mages and a jack (redeemer I think) lit Caine on fire and I burned to all but 3 of my health. I've played Orbos who I had a lord of feast (I think) rip through B13 and then gun mages. I played Khador who had Beast 09 rip through Gun Mages, B13 and my solo. And I played Cryx which yielded a loss as a DJ looked at Caine.

One wonders how those guys got into melee range at all with that kind of shooting about.

Zealots can get some extra protection stuff from other units, but it's still pretty easy to shoot the whole unit down. I don't recall them having a blanket protection from shooting like the choir does for jacks.

Sounds like you're running them too far forward and not holding back with snipe attacks as much. Also, once again, this isn't warhammer, don't bunch units together. Even a jack or model with reach still can't kill most units if they can't get them in melee range.

Thunderbolt any heavies that get too close. Snipe infantry. Use your own jacks up front.

And heck, Cain shouldn't be anywhere near the front since he can just teleport out of harms way if you manage his focus right.

A lot of what makes Warmachine what it is, is the concept of threat ranges and zones. Knowing what can get the charge, what can engage you by simply running at you, how to deal with either situation. You'll quickly get a better feel for guessing ranges, moreso than with other games, and eventually you'll get to the point where you can park your jacks and infantry just outside normal charge range, and just in weapons range, and shooting the heck out of an enemy as they come in. You'll also learn which targets are the priority in any given situation.

Oh, and I should also mention, focus on particular targets, don't hit something in piecemeal. If that deathjack is the biggest threat, and part of your enemy's army is dedicated to getting it into melee, blast the hell out of it at your first opportunity to blunt that part of your enemy's offensive plans.

Yeah, I would recommend running double hunters. They have better damage output against jacks than defenders do, and they will have 18in rng with your ARGM marshalling them. focus fire their heavy jacks while pushing their other units away with your ATGM. As soon as you can get most of their army in caine's ctrl area, blow his Feat, he could easily wipe out that entire zealot squad, lord of the feast, etc etc. Infantry should not be an issue with your army. Beast is tough to deal with since he advances when you shoot him. Your best bet would be to drop thunderbolts on him and try to get a knockdown at the start of your turn, then blast him apart with hunters, boosting dmg and what not. After the heavy target is out of the way, any soft targets are going to get smoked.


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I second vertucio on wondering how the heck anything got anywhere near your army. Zealots should go down long, and I mean LOOOOOOOOOOONNNNGGGGG, before they ever get anywhere near your army.

I would highly recommend playing with other Warcasters. Caine, although very powerful, often leads new players to people over committing him and loosing to a caster kill. I think Haley would be a much better start, as her abilities support both casters and jacks and does not put per in overly vulnerable situations. If a list fails, don't just keep using it. Find something that fits your style on the battlefield; not just in your head. You'll find that playing WarMachine is very different then TheoryMachine.

Unfortunately, something that works in your head doesn't always work on the board.

For those mentioning pCaine's feat, remember the OP is using eCaine.

However, if Armor (Deathjack, Beast09) is a problem and your Hunter and Defender aren't doing the trick its perfectly OK to blow eCaine's feat to take out a heavy..In small point games, taking out an 11+ point jack is going to give you a serious advantage.

Seige is very nice to use also.. and you dont haft to suicide to caster kill as you can do it from ranged.

Might look at him to swap with Caine possibly.

Hunters only outdamage Defenders until armor 19. After that's it's even out from there and a Defender does alot more than the Hunter and is harder to kill. They will also outrange hunters on the dude as well.

I would not drop Reinholdt either. He's mobile enough and combining him with Squire will get eCaine up to 10 shots on his feat turn. Gatecrasher is a very good assassination tool with gunfighter is often enough for a GG. You're still defense 17 as well.

Siege is a better attrition caster by far. eCaine is the assassination specialist. eStryker is for if you want to get up close and dirty. eHaley is good if you want everyone to hate you.

Siege is a better attrition caster by far. eCaine is the assassination specialist. eStryker is for if you want to get up close and dirty. eHaley is good if you want everyone to hate you.

Just perfect.

I actually have a diifferent approach. Give Caine the hunter and 2 Ironclads. Back that up with the B13 and a Journeyman. Fill in any remaining points with defensive/ tarpit models. Stay away from Warcaster Attachments/solos, because as was mentioned before, Caine moves too fast for them to keep up. Here's my thinking:
1. No list led by Caine is going to be good at attrition; he's just not set up for it.
2. Caine is arguably the best Assassin 'caster in the game.
3. Use tough, hardy units to protect Caine as you move up the board, with a sprinkling of other ranged specialists to keep the enemy off guard. After you get in range, open up the smallest of small seams in the enemy's line, and let Caine do what he do.

Aqualung wrote:Well thus far I have faced Menoth...

Vs Menoth: ATGM should have began opening fire at range 16 (hooray snipe!) giving the ATGM control of that engagement and they have a leg up on Zealots.
Against the other three you seemed to get those gunmages in melee against jacks. You should have no problem knocking jacks down or pushing them away. Cryx...have a bundle of tricks, so the DJ on Caine was probably how he planned it.

Vetrucio and KingKodo make some great points.

Looking at it from the Cryx side of things - I hate Caine. He's much harder to pin down than most other casters.