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I haven't had a chance to play much, but I just purchased a Freebooter to mess around with. Seems cheap and effective, as long as you have the ability to knock things down. Just curious what other players think of it...I plan on using it as a kind of counter charge for a shooty Cygnar force. Are there many units or effects out there that can ignore knockdown so that it won't be as useful as I'm hoping?

Not a bad jack, imo. A bit hard to squeeze into a non-Merc force sometimes, but it seems to synergize pretty well with the Devil Dogs when marshaled.

While there's a few things out there that can ignore KD, there's not really enough that it becomes a problem.

It can increase it's threat range with Jury Rigged, Can't be KDed, has two open fists and therefore all power attacks, gets extra damage against KD opponents and has a built in chain attack that can KD opponents and Amphibious just in case.

Nothing not to like, I'm a fan.

That's kind of what I was thinking. Shoot the light enemy stuff, and as tough enemies get close, knock them down, have the freebooter thrash it and then throw it away if it's still alive. Might hit something else nearby and knock it down, too.

It's a nice enough jack for 6 pt's, just really fragile for a heavy. I think a nomad is a bit better for the same cost in most cases.

The only thing with a Nomad is that it's just a heavy. Its' lack of any special rules makes it pretty inflexible compared with something like the Freebooter. If it comes down to a slight reduction in stats in exchange for increased versatility, I usually fall on the side of versatility. Not that either jack is "bad" per se, but in an average game you can get more mileage out of the Freebooter because it simply does more. Also with Mercs access to KD effects, the Freebooter can generally hit a good bit harder thanks to trash. On top of that, neither jack is really fragile, they're both heavies with heavy grids and neither will last a turn vs. charging weapon masters or another heavy with 3 focus, so unless you're facing a predominantly ranged list, the difference in armor is pretty marginal.

Mastershake wrote:The only thing with a Nomad is that it's just a heavy. Its' lack of any special rules makes it pretty inflexible compared with something like the Freebooter. If it comes down to a slight reduction in stats in exchange for increased versatility, I usually fall on the side of versatility. Not that either jack is "bad" per se, but in an average game you can get more mileage out of the Freebooter because it simply does more. Also with Mercs access to KD effects, the Freebooter can generally hit a good bit harder thanks to trash. On top of that, neither jack is really fragile, they're both heavies with heavy grids and neither will last a turn vs. charging weapon masters or another heavy with 3 focus, so unless you're facing a predominantly ranged list, the difference in armor is pretty marginal.

I don't think you give the nomad enough credit, while 2 pt's of armor seems marginal on paper in game play I find it makes a huge difference. Plus you just skip it's best special rule which is reach, the ability to threaten multiple models with reach is a huge advantage to say nothing of the ability to attack through holes that the freebooter can't. Plus at 3 more pow the nomad hits almost as hard ad as a freebooter vs knocked down models and considerably harder against models that are not knocked down. For the same point cost I will take better survivability reach and more hitting power in most situations, over kd shenanigans any day.

I'd argue you aren't giving the Freebooter enough credit. It's not " shenanigans" to walk up, hit twice, use a headbutt from the chain attack to knock the enemy down, then buy 3 auto-hitting 3D6 damage rolls. It is " shenanigans " to field one with Magnus, hit your target with a rocket, then walk up and auto-hit them 5 times with 3D6 on all damage rolls, but even then its very reliable "shenanigans". Also, two handed throws win games. As much as I love Discordia, I was relieved she still had two open fists.

@Mastershake: IMHO: ARM17 is a huge liability.

Assuming standard heavy grid 4/6/6/6/6/4 or 32 boxes:

Looking at infantry:

POW10, 6 man team (shooting/standing attacks), , average damage is 17

Borderline ineffective vs Freebooter (need 8's)
Mostly ineffective vs Nomad (need 10's)

POW10 melee charging, 6 man team, average damage is 21.

That's 24 damage on the grid for Freebooter (3/4 boxes gone. High chance of multiple crippled systems)
That's 12 damage on the grid for Nomad (3/8 boxes gone. Chance of a crippled system)

POW12, melee 6 man team (shooting/standing attacks), average damage is 19.

That's 12 damage on Freebooter (average)
Borderline ineffective vs Nomad (need 8's)

POW12 charging, 6 man team, average damage is 23.

That's 36 damage on the grid for Freebooter. Destroyed
That's 24 damage on the grid for Nomad.

Considering that the POW10/POW12 bands are very common - and that the Freebooter takes significant damage from both bands - POW10 charging and POW12, normal melee, shooting and charging - I'd have to go with the Nomad every time - as I can be confident that it can still deliver the goods when he gets into melee.

Speed: Equivalent
MAT: Equivalent (I think!)
Damage Output: Nomad
Survivability: Nomad
Threat Range: Nomad
Chain Attacks: Edge: Freebooter for having one
Power Attacks: Slight edge: Freebooter for 2 handed throw

Intangibles: Freebooter for can't be knocked down, amphibious and extra damage vs knocked down targets.
Intangibles: Nomad for huge engagement range.

Anyhow YMMV.

You're assuming the jack is just picking a fight with infantry. Infantry with POW 10 and 12 usually don't bother shooting jacks outside of CRAs as long as infantry targets are present and most players won't send non-weapon master or non-high POW infantry after a jack. Jacks usually get killed by other jacks or things an opponent can garauntee will drop it in a turn just because if you leave and arm and cortex intact it's still capable of doing considerable damage. Do the math all you like, but from a practical persepective the difference between 17 and 19 is far less than it may seem on paper/in MS Excel

Speed: Equivalent
MAT: Equivalent (I think!)
Damage Output: Nomad
Survivability: Nomad
Threat Range: Nomad
Chain Attacks: Edge: Freebooter for having one
Power Attacks: Slight edge: Freebooter for 2 handed throw

Jury rigged gives the Freebooter better speed and slightly better threat range, and against KD targets it's average damage output is higher. The only area the Nomad is garaunteed to have an edge is survivability. I can't say anything as to your local meta, but unless the ARM gets pretty stupid, the practical difference it makes in game is usually pretty light. Also it should be noted that 1 point of the Nomad's ARM comes from a Buckler which can be disabled or in some cases outright ignored narrowing the gap between the two alot faster.

Jury rigged gives you better speed and an extra 1/2" threat range on the turn you use it, it also damages your own jack. Against knocked down targets it's average damage is better by 1/2 a point per attack, you also have to hit with the freebooter 3 times in your example to even have a chance of doing more damage than the nomad. You should play whatever you like, but the nomad is harder to destroy and will reliably do more damage in most situations. I will often include a freebooter as a third heavy in a bigger game because of it's two handed throw ability, but if I am only including one heavy jack it will be the nomad every tme over a freebooter.

Mastershake wrote:You're assuming the jack is just picking a fight with infantry. Infantry with POW 10 and 12 usually don't bother shooting jacks outside of CRAs as long as infantry targets are present and most players won't send non-weapon master or non-high POW infantry after a jack. Jacks usually get killed by other jacks or things an opponent can garauntee will drop it in a turn just because if you leave and arm and cortex intact it's still capable of doing considerable damage. Do the math all you like, but from a practical persepective the difference between 17 and 19 is far less than it may seem on paper/in MS Excel.

No... what I'm saying is that the Freebooter is VUNERABLE to things that are beneath the Nomad's notice - that non-optimised infantry CAN do effective damage to one, and not the other. Its true that the higher the P+S goes, the lower effect ARM has on the outcome due to the fact that high P+S attacks are less plentiful. I don't see how say that 2ARM is less on paper compared to in practice. Last time I checked, it always meant 2 saved damage vs things strong enough to get over the ARM value and higher ARM meant more protection against weaker attacks (regardless of circumstance)... but that's crazytalk and I clearly don't know what I'm talking about.

VS P+S18, the Freebooter vs warjack average P+S18 is going to recieve on average 5x(2D6+1) damage = 40 damage.
VS P+S18, the Nomad vs the same P+S18 is going to receive 5x(2D6-1) = 30 damage.

On a 32 point grid, that's the difference between a high probability of a kill with slightly below average to average rolls and an "above average rolls needed" kill. As you noted, an almost kill can sometimes result in considerable retaliatory damage... Meaningless... I know.

I don't play mercs...but I will say, the Freebooter looks really cool, Big Daddy kind of cool.

I guess my concern with the Nomad is that it doesn't seem to serve the role I'm looking for. It can kill light mechs fine, but against heavier, assaulty mechs it is still going to lose. My shooty list has plenty of firepower to kill light stuff, but keeping heavy jacks at bay will take a lot of concentrated firepower.

If there isn't a lot of concern regarding threats that can ignore knockdown, and I have enough knockdown assets available, it seems the freebooter is a better choice. In a true merc force, where focus can be allocated to the thing, the above mentioned attack of two initial swings, and chain-attack head-butt and then three more +d6 hits would be pretty devastating. To be on the safe side, though, you'd probably still want something to knockdown or stun the target to increase your chances of hitting with the two initial attacks.

Alright, looks like a small metagame lesson is in order.

What do you metagame against when you're looking at your options for taking down a heavy jack? Unless you just fight Cryx all the time, it's not ARM 17. ARM 18-20 is what anti-heavy units or jacks are expected to be able to deal with in a turn. If the primary metagame ARM was 17, then a 19 would be huge, something people aren't generally bringing things to deal with. With ARM 18-20 as the standard for a heavy 21+ is the range you want for things to become difficult to respond to in only a turn of attacks. So from a metagame standpoint, when people are sending in their melee jacks/units to trash your heavy, they're committing enough to drop a nomad. The consequence of having a freebooter instead means the jack might be sitting on a point of focus or a model or two in the unit won't get to swing.

As far as non-optimized infantry attacking jacks, you said it yourself, they're non-optimized. Unless you're running really jack heavy or your infantry are just getting mauled, nobody in their right mind is going to throw POW 10s that average 0 damage against a heavy jack when there are infantry who they can kill with average dice. Even POW 12's averaging a whopping 2 damage are usually better spent on infantry where only light damage rolls, if any, are required for a kill. The odds that your jack will actually be taking enough from any of this to be a real threat to it functioning are pretty light.

Think of it like a shieldwalling infantry unit. Usually armies have a respone to shieldwalls, so by being in a shieldwall you aren't making the enemy less effective, you're simply changing what unit they send to deal with it.

Hell you may be right and I'm the only person in the universe who actually looks at the average ARM of a heavy jack and makes sure his anti-heavy units can cope with them. Me and everyone else I routinely play...

@Mastershake: Thanks for that lesson on meta.

I suppose as a MASTER OF META, you've never had a unit that was out of position take unoptimised ranged attacks against the only targets in range. This META MASTERY of course means that even if your opponent was so rubbish as to take said unoptimised attacks, they would obviously be useless. Clearly, as a tactical genius, you've never had a game go so pear shaped where you HAVE to charge a heavy with non-optimised infantry, so that situation will never happen.

Well... I bow to your superior tactical knowledge. Freebooter it is. Hell, what do I know... Champ coins are a dime a dozen anyways right?

I own all the Mercenary warjacks except the Freebooter (and the Buccaneer). I've never felt I needed a Freebooter in any of my lists where I already have the Nomad available

Mastershake wrote:Alright, looks like a small metagame lesson is in order.

So from a metagame standpoint, when people are sending in their melee jacks/units to trash your heavy, they're committing enough to drop a nomad. The consequence of having a freebooter instead means the jack might be sitting on a point of focus or a model or two in the unit won't get to swing.


Hell you may be right and I'm the only person in the universe who actually looks at the average ARM of a heavy jack and makes sure his anti-heavy units can cope with them. Me and everyone else I routinely play...

By your own admission you have made my point, if my opponent wants to trash my nomad he will use more of his resources than it will take to trash a freebooter. That extra focus or two are now not being spent on other spells or being given out to other jacks.

As for the other people you play, if your battle reports are any indication of their competence I would not have much cofidence in their opinions either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grimaldi wrote:I guess my concern with the Nomad is that it doesn't seem to serve the role I'm looking for. It can kill light mechs fine, but against heavier, assaulty mechs it is still going to lose. My shooty list has plenty of firepower to kill light stuff, but keeping heavy jacks at bay will take a lot of concentrated firepower.

If there isn't a lot of concern regarding threats that can ignore knockdown, and I have enough knockdown assets available, it seems the freebooter is a better choice. In a true merc force, where focus can be allocated to the thing, the above mentioned attack of two initial swings, and chain-attack head-butt and then three more +d6 hits would be pretty devastating. To be on the safe side, though, you'd probably still want something to knockdown or stun the target to increase your chances of hitting with the two initial attacks.

I don't think anyone around here is trying to tell you not to use a freebooter, you should play what you want. I only mentioned the nomad as an option because in my experience it is a better choice in most cases for the same 6 points. Good luck.