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Hey Dakka,
My friends and I are still pretty frequent rulebook consulters, so i apologize for the basic nature of my question, but are basic pk nobs as great for meq character killing as I think? Most marine IC's aren't immune to instant death and have a T4. A basic nob+pk assaults with S 8(9). So I can park my trukk, disembark, shoot (mostly for the noise), and assault into a tac squad with an IC. As long as i put the nob on the IC, i get free swings at him, no allocating on hapless vanilla bolter guys (since he counts as his own unit for the purposes of assaulting) and i can drop all his wounding hits on my weedier boyz at the back of the fight. If one of these klaw hits lands, the IC is out of the fight, right? The reason I post this here in YMDC is, have i missed a rule or wargear item available to space marines that prevents this? I've been looking all week for a reason that i'm doing something wrong. I feel a little bad using a 25 pt unit upgrade to pick off my friends' space ma-jerk heros.

privateer wrote:Hey Dakka,
My friends and I are still pretty frequent rulebook consulters, so i apologize for the basic nature of my question, but are basic pk nobs as great for meq character killing as I think? Most marine IC's aren't immune to instant death and have a T4. A basic nob+pk assaults with S 8(9). So I can park my trukk, disembark, shoot (mostly for the noise), and assault into a tac squad with an IC. As long as i put the nob on the IC, i get free swings at him, no allocating on hapless vanilla bolter guys (since he counts as his own unit for the purposes of assaulting) and i can drop all his wounding hits on my weedier boyz at the back of the fight. If one of these klaw hits lands, the IC is out of the fight, right? The reason I post this here in YMDC is, have i missed a rule or wargear item available to space marines that prevents this? I've been looking all week for a reason that i'm doing something wrong. I feel a little bad using a 25 pt unit upgrade to pick off my friends' space ma-jerk heros.

Yes. Nobz are that amazing.

The best thing to do if you are marines is to kill them before they get anywhere NEAR you.

privateer wrote:Hey Dakka,
My friends and I are still pretty frequent rulebook consulters, so i apologize for the basic nature of my question, but are basic pk nobs as great for meq character killing as I think? Most marine IC's aren't immune to instant death and have a T4. A basic nob+pk assaults with S 8(9). So I can park my trukk, disembark, shoot (mostly for the noise), and assault into a tac squad with an IC. As long as i put the nob on the IC, i get free swings at him, no allocating on hapless vanilla bolter guys (since he counts as his own unit for the purposes of assaulting) and i can drop all his wounding hits on my weedier boyz at the back of the fight. If one of these klaw hits lands, the IC is out of the fight, right? The reason I post this here in YMDC is, have i missed a rule or wargear item available to space marines that prevents this? I've been looking all week for a reason that i'm doing something wrong. I feel a little bad using a 25 pt unit upgrade to pick off my friends' space ma-jerk heros.

edit: The ninja of dakka strikes!

The IC would get his invulnerable save, if any. But a strength 8 hit against a toughness 4 model without eternal warrior will kill it outright if the wound is unsaved.

Rephistorch wrote:

privateer wrote:Hey Dakka,
My friends and I are still pretty frequent rulebook consulters, so i apologize for the basic nature of my question, but are basic pk nobs as great for meq character killing as I think? Most marine IC's aren't immune to instant death and have a T4. A basic nob+pk assaults with S 8(9). So I can park my trukk, disembark, shoot (mostly for the noise), and assault into a tac squad with an IC. As long as i put the nob on the IC, i get free swings at him, no allocating on hapless vanilla bolter guys (since he counts as his own unit for the purposes of assaulting) and i can drop all his wounding hits on my weedier boyz at the back of the fight. If one of these klaw hits lands, the IC is out of the fight, right? The reason I post this here in YMDC is, have i missed a rule or wargear item available to space marines that prevents this? I've been looking all week for a reason that i'm doing something wrong. I feel a little bad using a 25 pt unit upgrade to pick off my friends' space ma-jerk heros.

edit: The ninja of dakka strikes!

The IC would get his invulnerable save, if any. But a strength 8 hit against a toughness 4 model without eternal warrior will kill it outright if the wound is unsaved.

Technically, it'll cause "Instant Death." "Kill it outright" is a different thing. I do believe Direswords cause that one?

Be careful with terminology, much of it is not interchangeable, and may get you into trouble.

Well, that's what i thought. 41 pts of upgraded boy stomping 100+ points of Humanity's finest makes me giggle. I love my orks, even when they kareen into their mates and explode or run away at the crucial moment, failing even their bosspole re-role.
Thanks for the quick (read: Instant) replies.

SaintHazard wrote:

Rephistorch wrote:

privateer wrote:Hey Dakka,
My friends and I are still pretty frequent rulebook consulters, so i apologize for the basic nature of my question, but are basic pk nobs as great for meq character killing as I think? Most marine IC's aren't immune to instant death and have a T4. A basic nob+pk assaults with S 8(9). So I can park my trukk, disembark, shoot (mostly for the noise), and assault into a tac squad with an IC. As long as i put the nob on the IC, i get free swings at him, no allocating on hapless vanilla bolter guys (since he counts as his own unit for the purposes of assaulting) and i can drop all his wounding hits on my weedier boyz at the back of the fight. If one of these klaw hits lands, the IC is out of the fight, right? The reason I post this here in YMDC is, have i missed a rule or wargear item available to space marines that prevents this? I've been looking all week for a reason that i'm doing something wrong. I feel a little bad using a 25 pt unit upgrade to pick off my friends' space ma-jerk heros.

edit: The ninja of dakka strikes!

The IC would get his invulnerable save, if any. But a strength 8 hit against a toughness 4 model without eternal warrior will kill it outright if the wound is unsaved.

Technically, it'll cause "Instant Death." "Kill it outright" is a different thing. I do believe Direswords cause that one?

Be careful with terminology, much of it is not interchangeable, and may get you into trouble.

I will do so. I was merely stating that, in this instance (with a space marine IC), instant death causes the model to be killed outright because it does not have eternal warrior.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

privateer wrote:Well, that's what i thought. 41 pts of upgraded boy stomping 100+ points of Humanity's finest makes me giggle. I love my orks, even when they kareen into their mates and explode or run away at the crucial moment, failing even their bosspole re-role.
Thanks for the quick (read: Instant) replies.

It does make one remember how fragile most MEQ models are. Even space marines themselves can usually get a 25 pt upgrade to a power fist which does the same thing to MEQs. That's why it's hard for me to justify spending so much on a fully upgraded character.

^Yep. I'm finding myself much more concerned about thunderfire cannons and whirlwinds than ole lysander. (thank god for deffkoptas!)

You mean: Thank Gork an' Mork for deffkoptas!

But, yeah, Boyz-Nobz always need a PK. It makes the unit so much better. The only reason why a nob shouldn't have a PK is because you're outta points or he needs to have some kind of choppa for Nob squad wound allocation goodness.

You read it right, if you double their toughness they are killed outright regardless of wounds. Now about one(sometimes two) models in each army are Eternal Warriors, meaning that they are immune to instant death. So need to know who you are running up against. Now if you are in base to base with them you can target them but they can still put wounds on other guys because it is still a squad, only when you deal more wounds than members in the squad does it start to wrap around. If they are smart they will put the least amount of dice rolls on the person with an invulnerable save.

Reminds me of IG power blob tactics...

@BloodAngles_Chris

As I understand it, a unit with an IC fighting in close assault resolves hits and wounds as though it were two separate units. (pg. 49 Lil' Rulebook) Doesn't that mean the IC must take all wounds directed at him as he represents a unit of one? The only way he gets ablative wounds is with a retinue (or so I thought). Also, Who else has eternal warrior in the Vanilla Marine codex aside from Calgar?

Calgar is the only actual Ultramarine that has eternal warrior. Lysander is in the same codex, but fluff wise is an Imperial Fist.

Vanilla Marines got hosed on Eternal Warrior; while SW Wolf Lords can get it by taking Saga of the Bear, Logan comes with it, and Lone Wolves have it by means of their special rule "A Glorious Death". However, by no means does this mean they are better. Every army has its strengths and weaknesses.

Those nobs with PKs aren't cheap and they still have to get across the board.

BloodAngles_Chris wrote:You read it right, if you double their toughness they are killed outright regardless of wounds. Now about one(sometimes two) models in each army are Eternal Warriors, meaning that they are immune to instant death. So need to know who you are running up against. Now if you are in base to base with them you can target them but they can still put wounds on other guys because it is still a squad, only when you deal more wounds than members in the squad does it start to wrap around. If they are smart they will put the least amount of dice rolls on the person with an invulnerable save.

privateer wrote:@BloodAngles_Chris

As I understand it, a unit with an IC fighting in close assault resolves hits and wounds as though it were two separate units. (pg. 49 Lil' Rulebook) Doesn't that mean the IC must take all wounds directed at him as he represents a unit of one? The only way he gets ablative wounds is with a retinue (or so I thought). Also, Who else has eternal warrior in the Vanilla Marine codex aside from Calgar?

Privateer, you're correct. As long as the model(s) are in B2B with the IC you can target him and the attacks HAVE to be allocated to him, as you said he is his own squad in CC for this purpose.

Kevin949 wrote:

BloodAngles_Chris wrote:You read it right, if you double their toughness they are killed outright regardless of wounds. Now about one(sometimes two) models in each army are Eternal Warriors, meaning that they are immune to instant death. So need to know who you are running up against. Now if you are in base to base with them you can target them but they can still put wounds on other guys because it is still a squad, only when you deal more wounds than members in the squad does it start to wrap around. If they are smart they will put the least amount of dice rolls on the person with an invulnerable save.

privateer wrote:@BloodAngles_Chris

As I understand it, a unit with an IC fighting in close assault resolves hits and wounds as though it were two separate units. (pg. 49 Lil' Rulebook) Doesn't that mean the IC must take all wounds directed at him as he represents a unit of one? The only way he gets ablative wounds is with a retinue (or so I thought). Also, Who else has eternal warrior in the Vanilla Marine codex aside from Calgar?

Privateer, you're correct. As long as the model(s) are in B2B with the IC you can target him and the attacks HAVE to be allocated to him, as you said he is his own squad in CC for this purpose.

Now I always screw this part up. Is it the models in B2B who can hit the IC or is it the unit in B2B who can allocate all their attacks at the IC?

lysander, does infact have eternal warrior, and a str 10 thunder hammer and a ss and terminator armor also 4 wounds. he is the best character in the book, outside of jesus he'stan.

[Now I always screw this part up. Is it the models in B2B who can hit the IC or is it the unit in B2B who can allocate all their attacks at the IC?
]

Just the models. BRB tells you to think of it as a multiple assault.

[Those nobs with PKs aren't cheap and they still have to get across the board]

They're worth every penny, and gettin' across the board is what Trukks 'n Wagons are for. Woohoo for turn two assault! (with the trukks anyway)

[lysander, does infact have eternal warrior, and a str 10 thunder hammer and a ss and terminator armor also 4 wounds. he is the best character in the book, outside of jesus he'stan.]

Lucky for me I don't know anyone who plays Vulkan. I do occasionally get Lysander stomping around with CC Termies. Major drag when you add the LRC into the mix. I much prefer those squishy marine heros who can have their pointy little heads snipped off.

That's why transports are always a priority target.

Zeshin - the rules are:

If you are in b2b with a unit,and not in b2b with any other unit, you MUST direct attacks against that unit. That includes ICs as, during assault, they are considered a seperate unit.

If you are in b2b with 2 or more units, then you choose

If you are not in b2b with any unit, but are engaged with 1 unit, you MUST hit that unit

If you are not in b2b, and are engaged with 2 or more units, you can choose which unit to hit.

^Right, and with specific regards to the IC, they must be B2B rather than simply engaged in order to attack.

privateer wrote:^Right, and with specific regards to the IC, they must be B2B rather than simply engaged in order to attack.

No, that's wrong. ICs don't have any special engagement rules, the only rule they have is that they act as a 1 model unit. The IC has to actually be in base contact to be engaged because he's a 1-person unit and so can't be within 2" of another model in his unit since there aren't any, if he's not in BtB he's not engaged. The enemy unit functions normally, they attack the IC like they would any other unit. Any models that are in BtB with the IC or within 2" of a model in BtB with the IC and not in BtB with another unit is engaged with and can allocate attacks to the IC.

P41 explains how to determine who's engaged and how to allocate attacks in multi-unit combats, P49 has the rules for independent characters in assaults and says specifically "independent characters can be targeted separately by models that are engaged with them". There isn't any room for confusion, the rules explicitly state it.

zeshin wrote:Now I always screw this part up. Is it the models in B2B who can hit the IC or is it the unit in B2B who can allocate all their attacks at the IC?

It's neither one, look at P41 or nosferatu1001's explanation. In assaults, attacks are allocated to units based on which models are engaged, not by whole units.

The IC is a 1 model unit for the purposes of resolving hits. He is still engaged in close assault whether or not he is in b2b, because, other than hits and wounds, he is still attached to the unit and counts as a member of the unit for combat resolution. Another unit wouldn't be able to shoot at him, for example, because his unit is engaged in close assault. He just doesn't get to fight. (Pg. 49 BRB Once all attacks have been resolved, these characters are once again treated as normal members of the unit they have joined...)
So its like a multiple assault, but its not. they are sorta special engagement rules.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

zeshin wrote:Now I always screw this part up. Is it the models in B2B who can hit the IC or is it the unit in B2B who can allocate all their attacks at the IC?

It's neither one, look at P41 or nosferatu1001's explanation. In assaults, attacks are allocated to units based on which models are engaged, not by whole units.

Thank you. And that's why I said "can". I guess I should have said "may". Units in B2B may allocate all their attacks to the IC, or of course they can split them however they want with the other unit they are engaged with.

privateer wrote: The IC is a 1 model unit for the purposes of resolving hits. He is still engaged in close assault whether or not he is in b2b, because, other than hits and wounds, he is still attached to the unit and counts as a member of the unit for combat resolution. Another unit wouldn't be able to shoot at him, for example, because his unit is engaged in close assault. He just doesn't get to fight. (Pg. 49 BRB Once all attacks have been resolved, these characters are once again treated as normal members of the unit they have joined...)

No, he is locked in combat but is not engaged in combat with any units. If he was engaged in close combat with a unit, he could fight with it and use his full attacks, that's what the term 'engaged' means in the 40k rules. P35 explains this difference, between 'locked in combat' and 'engaged in combat'. Another unit wouldn't be able to shoot at him because he is locked in combat, but he is not engaged in combat with any unit.

So its like a multiple assault, but its not. they are sorta special engagement rules.

It is a multiple assault, it exactly follows the normal engagement rules. The problem is that you're confusing 'engaged' with 'locked in combat', the two are not the same thing in 40k rules.

It isnt a multiple assault when you work out morale, however, as the IC rejoins the squad before working out which side won.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It isnt a multiple assault when you work out morale, however, as the IC rejoins the squad before working out which side won.

There's no difference in working out who won a multiple assault or a single assault, you just total wounds caused by both sides. It doesn't matter if you have a 10-man squad or 10 individual models on your side, the wounds add up the same anyway, so the IC 'rejoining' his squad doesn't change anything about working out which side won. The IC and squad are one unit if they lose and have to make a morale check, win and try to catch an enemy unit, or win and consolidate, but all of that is well after the part of the fight where the state of 'engaged' or 'not engaged' matter.

I was just making it clear that you only make a single morale check for IC + Unit, not 2 (or NR! wounds if fearless, etc)

@bearsofsalvation Okay. I see the difference between the two terms. You're right there. I was confusing the issue by saying "engaged" rather than "locked". The point I was trying to make is what Nos' finally pointed out. The rules are like a multiple assault in the ways you describe, but they are different by the end of the combat phase because you go back to treating the models as one unit. That has to be clear. If i charged a unit with IC with my orks and could touch bases with the unit but not the IC it still counts as being locked for the IC. if the entire phase was worked out as a multiple assault, you could argue that the unit of 1 IC isn't even locked in combat with the orks because they couldn't touch his base and maintain coherency. So he could move away or shoot or counter-charge in his turn. It does sometimes make a difference whether is is a single assault or multiple since they both losing units make morale checks but don't always have the same result. Some leg it, some stay and fight. One unit makes one roll and abides by it. I'm not trying to be a pain. I think there is a discernable difference though.