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Me and my friends have just started playing warhammer and we are going to start at like 500 point battles. But my friends hive tyrant is just ridiculous. I only have two dreadnoughts and some infantry. One is an ironclad and the other is the one that came with assault on black reach.



TL: DR what is a good cheap counter for space marines to monstrous creatures for sub 500 point games

thanks a lot.

Sternguard Veterans and Sniper Scouts would be a good starting point, the Sterguard for their Hellfire rounds, which always wound on a 2+, and the Sniper Scouts for their always wound on a 4+/rend on a 6.

Hellfire rounds (scout heavy bolters, and captains/sternguard), sniper rifles, and meltas work well

I find that Assault cannons work well on them, but yea sternguard will make quick work of it.

What do you guys think the best weapon additions to a devastator squad and a razorback to take down these creatures?

AllergicToTyranids wrote:What do you guys think the best weapon additions to a devastator squad and a razorback to take down these creatures?

Dreads aren't going to be useful at all against MCs, they'll take the 1-2 hits from the DCCW and then smash you back with the +2d6 armor penetration.

Missile Launchers and Plasma both work well. Typhoons are also a great option, since they can move out of assault range while firing their missiles.

When in doubt, the answer for everything for Codex Marines is TH/SS Terminators.

minigun762 wrote:
When in doubt, the answer for everything for Codex Marines is TH/SS Terminators.

My problem with terminators is that they cost way too much and I hate how if I get one bad dice roll they die from one wound.

Well one answer would be to play bigger games. At 500 points you can tailor a list to smash your opponent, but really the 500 point region is too small to really get into tactics and such.

For example, at 500 points you can have a 100 point libby (who is awesome) an 85 point sniper missle team, a 10 man tac squad with a fist/missile/flamer in a las plas razor for 270, and 45 points for other upgrades like a combi melta, plasma pistol on the libby, hunterkiller missile, extra scouts, ect.

Every unit can hurt the hive tyrant from across the board save the libby, who can phood the tyrant powers.

A quick anti-monstrous creature 500 point list would be:

HQ: Librarian, Null Zone, a 2nd psychic power - 100

T1: 10-man Sniper Scout Squad, Missile Launcher or Heavy Bolter - 150

T2: 5-man Sniper Scout Squad, CamoCloaks, Missile Launcher or Heavy Bolter - 100

HS1: 5-man Devastator Squad, 4 Missile Launchers - 150

Against MC's this list should work well. Against a varied Tyranid army, it'd probably get charged and die before it had enough time to kill the enemy off, it all depends on exactly what your opponent is taking.

From a nid players perspective, the stuff in a standard SM codex that I have to watch out for with my MCs in no particular order:

- Twin-Linked Lascannons
- Twin-Linked Assault Cannons
- Sternguard
- Plasma
- Melta
- Missile Launchers
- Sniper Rifles (in volume)
- Depending on which MC, TH/SS Termies.

10 rapid firing sternguard should down a 'fex no problems.


Snipers are totally illegitimate at downing MCs. check the mathhammer guys.

If you wanna go all out, 5 sternguard all with combi plas, or a command squad with 4x plasma.

Or alternatively, TH/SS!

Trust me, their UNDERpriced

TH/SS terminators in a land raider
The heavy weapon in a tac squad
Plasma guns
melta guns
Lascannon/twin-linked plasma razorbacks
Sternguard special ammo
Land speeder typhoons
MM/HF land speeder
HB/AC predator
Command squads
2X auto-cannon dreadnoughts
Librarians with nullzone if they have a invul (demons)

Space marines really don't have a problem taking down monstrous creatures its the hoard usually comes with them that is a problem.

If you were only Chaos, the answer would be simple (3+1D6 Instant Kills a turn) but off topic. I'd suggest plasma.

Plasma in squads with a power fist, missile launcher on your dread, sternguard with melta weapons... the king would have to be devastators with 4 missile launchers though.

AllergicToTyranids wrote:Me and my friends have just started playing warhammer and we are going to start at like 500 point battles. But my friends hive tyrant is just ridiculous. I only have two dreadnoughts and some infantry. One is an ironclad and the other is the one that came with assault on black reach.



TL: DR what is a good cheap counter for space marines to monstrous creatures for sub 500 point games

thanks a lot.

At 500 points or less you're going to want to shoot it with a lascannon predator or maybe a missile launcher devestator squad. plasma weapons are your medium range monster killers. you dont really have any good close combat solutions. tyranid weaknesses are that their armor isnt that great and they dont have low ap weapons. special and heavy weapons are the key. Dreadnoughts will routinely lose to hive tyrants in close combat - dont let the fluff fool you, a dread is no match for 95% of the monstrous creatures in the game, bc they usually have higher init and kill the dread before it can do anything. AF

Monsters getting 2d6 pen doesn't help at all for dreads either. My normal dreadnaught SURVIVED a couple rounds in CC with a greater daemon, but that's all he did. No weaps and immobilized. He was just chillin after that.

THSS termies
Yes they cost but they are awesome
Sternguard are great however their survivability is poor once they get engaged in CC
Yes you can shield them however thats now limiting your tactical flexibility
Hammernators just tear everything up

Chain Fist termies do well for me as I take em down everytime in close combat....Multi-meltas work too...

you really need to play bigger games

Marines are bad under 1k and absolutly suck at 500.

you are stuck paying 100 points + equipment for any HQs and then the expensive troops.

there really isn't much to do, but scouts are good because they are cheap. just don't give them sniper rifles.


you just need to stay back and keep shooting the tyrant untill it dies.

5 scouts with bolters in a LSS are good for this as they can keep moving and pour fire into the tyrant which won't be able to catch you and doesn't have the shooting to bring you down.

I'm at a loss myself when it comes to SM lists at 500

I'm thinking ....

130 pts for the HQ of choice, options to suit you, I have a Capt. and no other HQ models, so I do Capt. with Relic Blade...

170 for ML/Flamer Tac. Squad, combat it to leave 4 and the ML back to take ML shots, then bolters too if anything is in 24" and they're alive...

100 for 5 snipers/scouts

100 for Dakka Pred HB/AC

the other variation is:

115 pt capt with PW
170 tac sqd
75 for 5 scouts
and either a 100ot Dakka Pred. and a 40 pt Attack Bike...OR... a 90 pt Razorback, mine is TL las, SB, DB... and a 50 pt Attack bike.....



Any advice will be great... i will keep reading this thread...
good luck to ya,
Isaiah

Grey Templar wrote:

5 scouts with bolters in a LSS are good for this as they can keep moving and pour fire into the tyrant which won't be able to catch you and doesn't have the shooting to bring you down.

That won't work as you describe it though, because you can only move 6" and shoot out of a vehicle. AND you need to be within 12" to even shoot you bolters, since you moved. So yes, the tyrant will catch you.
Not to mention that 5 Bolters at BS3 will not even make a dent in a hive tyrant.

And no shooting to take you down you say? How 'bout 6 TL BS3 S6 shots at 18"? I'd say that's about enough to down an Open topped av10 vehicle.

OT: at 500 pts, probably a cheapish 5 man devastator squad with MLs or ACLC preds will do the trick best.

Personally, I think without tailoring your list specifically against him, a tyranid MC list will auto-win 500 point games against most armies.

List like
Tyrant 170
Trygon w/ Regeneration 225
11 Termagaunts + 10 Termagaunts = 500 points

He just has to wait for his trygon to appear right on top of the enemy and then his other stuff sprints over.

Tanks won't be able to deal with a trygon appearing right next to them. 7 attacks on charge with Fleet re-rolling all misses and 2d6 armor pen ends most any vehicle/troop unit. 6 wounds T6 3+ save and regeneration means it's a meatgrinder in a war of attrition.

How about:

Libby in termie armor, null zone, vortex.
TH/SS termies
scout squad with ML or HB
scout squad with teleport homer.

500 points

Scouts can be armed however.

It has a S10 blast which is nice, null zone, which is useful, a hood for negating those annoying powers part of the time.

TH/SS termies are just nasty in cc, they deep strike with the libby in this list, using the scout beacon if possible.

I'd actually suggest seeing if you can't keep your troops cheap, and saving 150 points for a duo of assault cannon-toting razorbacks. A round or two of those and you've got him down, plus they're solid weapons against most nids.

update!
I have bought some guys so I'm gonna show a list of all I've got and if I could get some suggestions on how I could use them effectively in general or against MCs

1xcaptain
5xterminators
1xrifleman dread
1xironclad dread
5xscouts
5xassault marines
2xrhinos/razorbacks
30x marines

Against monstrous creatures there a good option:

Sternguard and captain w/ Command Squad:

x 5 Sternguard firing Hellfire Rounds.

Captain w/ Bolt Pistol firing hellfire rounds with relic blade ready to finish the pesky Hive Tyrant off.

Command Squad firing plasma guns.

total cost (incl vehicles)

Captain
Art Armour
Rel Bl
H R
155

Command Squad w/ Rhino
x 4 Plasma Guns
210

Sternguard (5 man)
Drop Pod
160

525

I dont think the captain needs artificer armor, MC ignore normal saves right?

Yeah, if you want to CC MCs, you need a thunder shield.

Corennus wrote:Captain w/ Bolt Pistol firing hellfire rounds with relic blade ready to finish the pesky Hive Tyrant off.

Can't fire hellfire rounds from a bolt pistol, only from a bolter. If you're planning on fighting a hive tyrant and not making a general list, a power fist or thunder hammer is better at killing MCs.

Terminators of any sort are right out in a 500-point army, Hammernators doubly so, since you can't even afford a ride for them. they'll be stuck walking 6" a turn, and then running. They won't ever CATCH a Hive Tyrant to hit it with their hammers.

I'm not even sure why chainfists were mentioned. They don't do anything extra against non-AV units.

Corennus' list isn't even legal. It has 0 Troops choices.../boggle.

At the 500-point threshold, you want cheap (free) heavy weapons. This means the free upgrades on tactical squads, like missile launchers and multimeltas. Take the free flamer as your special, or pay the premium points for a plasmagun. The flamer roasts the gribblies with impunity, or you can use the plasmagun to knock additional wounds off the Tyrant.
The plasmagun and multimelta match up perfectly, since they both have a 24" range. Since 500 point games are played on a 4'x4' board (usually), the fight will quickly come to you. Two tactical squads armed with plasmagun/multimelta can typically put 2-3 wounds on the Tyrant per turn, in addition to any pure-luck shots you land with bolters (who are also in that 24" range band!).
Unfortunately, that leaves you with a whopping 130 points for your HQ unit. A Captain with hellfire rounds in his bolter is nice and cheap, matches the range band of the tac squads, and hits/wounds on 2s. The Tyrant gets armor saves against the hellfire though.
With the 20 points left over, you could put combiflamers on the tac sergeants, which will put the gribblies down for the count when combined with the standard flamer in the squad.
You're basically gambling on your ability to put the Tyrant down from range before he can eat you for lunch. You have to deploy your whole force in a concentrated area for mutual fire support, which severely limits your options in an objective game and forces you to largely play for a tie. You don't have the mobility to capture far-off objectives and still shoot the bad guys. If this happens, place as manyof the objectives as you can near the center of the table, so you can gun down the Nids from your home base, forcing them to deal with you.

If you'd prefer to go with vehicles, you're looking at bare-bones tactical squads in Razorbacks. You eat 180 of your points just purchasing your base 5-man squads with no upgrades. You're prettymuch required to upgun those Razors with Assault Cannons, twin-las, or las/plas. That will run you in the ball park of 150 points for the pair of upgunned Razors. I'd personally recommend the las/plas version. You can get a maximum of six wounds on the Tyrant between the two razors if you do not move,a nd fire at 12" range. You get a max of four wounds on him if you don't move and fire at a 24" range. Finally, a max of two wounds at ranges over 24".
You're left with 170 points to play with. A barebones Librarian with two powers is best, since he only eats 100 points.
A Landspeeder might be a good choice for those last 70 points, since it can zoom around the board taking various potshots at the non-Tyrant units with little fear of retribution. If you go barebones on the Speeder (heavy bolter only), youc an afford to buy two combiflamers for the tac sergeants for gaunt killing.

All in all, the 500-point threshold is really tough for Marines to win at. It's actually almost statistically impossible for a 500-point Marine army to beat a 500-point Ork army.