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I have just started a high elf army and my freind has just started dwarfs. He is going to use five warmachines in his army, (Probably 3 Cannon + 2 Organ gun or 3 Cannon + 2 Grudge throwers).
I am not sure what to do to counter this.

Any ideas?
Units, tactics, combos or army lists all welcomed.

I siuggest you run at him and die...

Honestly tho aside from Teclis, HE have very little to handle, well pretty much anything...

Best suggestion would be birds, however most players that run WM heavy will also have an engineer attached to each warmachine with a brace of pistols which increases his CC attacks and grants a stand and shoot reaction to the warmachine with 2x str4 AP shots (it's in the dwarf FAQ). I'd recommend at least one sacrifice spell slinger and pray he doesnt foul up. That or pray for a lot of misfires, but with RoForging and RoAccuracy I wouldn't rely on it.

Oh and watch our for thunderers/Quarrelers guarding the back as well, they'll put you in the dirt quick.

Don't HE have scouts? If so there's a possible solution there. Also a large block of archers could do the trick too but then you'll be pulling from your infantry so it's double edged.

Shadow warriors but dont go withing 12 of the cannons because of grapeshot, try to stay near the grudgethrowers.

Send eagles to attack the machines ASAP. Sure the dwarf engineer will get to shoot at you but he isn't going to kill you every time especially if you send two at a machine.

Edit: Aren't shadow warriors a little overpriced for what they are? I mean they are a solution to the problem but there are probably better ones out there.

Don't warmachines fail all test except toughness and leadership? If so depending on your Lore you can really mess up his line.

WarWizard91 wrote:Don't warmachines fail all test except toughness and leadership? If so depending on your Lore you can really mess up his line.

And so it all comes back to magic
BTW yes they do fail all tests but T and LD.

good luck getting spells off against a properly built dwarf army.

It's possible but you're probably going to lose your wizard to a miscast. Dwarves get a +2 base to dispel, Runesmiths add another dice while a Runelord adds 2 and if he's got an anvil that's a total of 3. Couple that with a MRoBalance which takes one of your power dice and gives it to the dwarf player, you're looking at some steep odds. That and the basic loadout on a Runesmith/Runelord is MRoBalance and a Spellbreaker rune which is essentially a dispel scroll.

Yeah but elves can play the magic game too, with Teclis and banner of sorcery. Yes I do realize that they are a major crutch for Elves, but if that's what it takes.

Magic isn't a crutch for High Elves any more than a bunch of warmachines is for Dwarves. Why aren't people decrying war machine spam as much as magic?

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:Magic isn't a crutch for High Elves any more than a bunch of warmachines is for Dwarves. Why aren't people decrying war machine spam as much as magic?

People do. Gunline aint really a fun army to play with or against

kenshin620 wrote:

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:Magic isn't a crutch for High Elves any more than a bunch of warmachines is for Dwarves. Why aren't people decrying war machine spam as much as magic?

People do. Gunline aint really a fun army to play with or against

In my experience, for every one war machine/gun line compliant, there are 10 High Elves magic complaints.

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:Magic isn't a crutch for High Elves any more than a bunch of warmachines is for Dwarves. Why aren't people decrying war machine spam as much as magic?

People do. Gunline aint really a fun army to play with or against

In my experience, for every one war machine/gun line compliant, there are 10 High Elves magic complaints.

I've found this as well. At my local GW most of the experienced players are compleatly against Teclis and say he is 'Over Powered and Under Priced'. He's dead as soon as he gets into combat. That has to count against him so whats all the fuss about?


Anyway back to the whole point of the thread Dwarfs with lots of war machines.
How can I beat them?

I agree that shadow warriors are over priced for what they do.

I have talked about eagles with my freinds. But he is probably going to guard the warmachines with thunders so the eagles would get shot to ribbons.

Any ideas on magic counter attacks?

Level 4 mage on eagle using death with book of hoeth and pray you have the luck of the dice gods.

I would happily leave my WMs at home if my opponent left his mages at home. HE cavalry, archery and spear blocks vs dwarf infantry and core shooting would be a fun game.

doctorludo wrote:I would happily leave my WMs at home if my opponent left his mages at home. HE cavalry, archery and spear blocks vs dwarf infantry and core shooting would be a fun game.

You're forgetting Phoenix Guard, White Lions, and Swordmasters to mention a few.

What points value are we talking about for the game.

3 cannons and 2 organ guns vs 120 HE archers (6 units of 20, 2 ranks of 10) and 4 repeater bolt throwers deployed 25 inches back isn't too concerning. Throw in 30 shadow warriors scouted behind the Dwarf line to annoy even more.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:What points value are we talking about for the game.

3 cannons and 2 organ guns vs 120 HE archers (6 units of 20, 2 ranks of 10) and 4 repeater bolt throwers deployed 25 inches back isn't too concerning. Throw in 30 shadow warriors scouted behind the Dwarf line to annoy even more.

2000pts

I would love to do massed shooting but my other opponents will be Tomb Kings, Lizardmen, Oger Kingdoms and Orcs + Goblins so I don't think it would work against them.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:What points value are we talking about for the game.

3 cannons and 2 organ guns vs 120 HE archers (6 units of 20, 2 ranks of 10) and 4 repeater bolt throwers deployed 25 inches back isn't too concerning. Throw in 30 shadow warriors scouted behind the Dwarf line to annoy even more.

What happens when his 20 rangers scout, strength 3 bows bounce off dwarfs 120 HE archers vs 120 quarrellers is good game.

Hah, played a 1000pts yesterday against a Dwarf player and won by the skin of my teeth. What I did is keep his guns busy with eagles, even if they get shot to gak it's one turn they're not shooting at anything else.
Then kept rolling for magic, even if his dispel chance was freakin' high. I managed to sneak 2 life spells past his runelord with devistating results. (I know you can't depend on lucky dicerolls, but I'm an Ork player )
Then I got Swordmasters in his face ASAP, using a "Banner of Swiftness". Once they're in there it's pretty much over for him CC-wise. 10 out of 15 made it to his line, at the end of the game 3 were left after killing 3 whole units. Don't underestimate them, with their "Always Strikes First", 6WS and their huge Int advantage they hit often against Stumpies and they hit HARD!

I know it's an expensive gambit, but I always resign 2 units as "Cannon Fodder". If they get pulped, it's all good as long as they divert the attention from the heavy hitters. Reavers have been awesome at this, since they tie up units for 1 or 2 turns and then my Seaguard mop up the rest.

This is all from my 2 weeks of WHF experience, so I'm not claiming to be Captain Fantasy or anything... just saying...

Its not a HE magic complaint, its a teclis complaint....

Hearing

Irresistable
Irresistable
Irresistable

every turn is worse then war machine spam imo.

No big deal to me, i rarely hear it for more than two, three turns. And even then becalming cogitation may save ma ass since teclis also needs to beat the casting value and get a double 1-5.

Back to the topic again.

Phoenix Guard have a ward save that is very helpful. I would take a big block of them, enough to soak up some casualties.

Then, take a lot of MSU fast cavalry spam.

Also, bring dragon princes... a lot of that artillery is likely to be flaming, which dragon princes think is cute.

Lastly, a combat lord on a flying carpet with dragon armor and a 4+ ward save might be helpful. Anything to help you get there faster.

Best of luck,

Silas

Perhaps its because not as many folks have modeled up the war machine spam for 8th. Most High Elf players probably have a few mage models on hand from 7th. Dwarves aren't used to being able to rock 3 cannons, 3 grudgethrowers, 2 organ guns.

That isn't to say I agree with the complaining, (though I understand it). It's all about matching your expectations and playing style with your opponent.

I have been thinking about using this combo for hunting the warmachines and then attacking other units:

Prince, Griffon, Armour of Destiny, Enchanted Shield, Lance: 411pts

Noble, BSB, Great Eagle, Armour of Calador, Sword of Might, Iron Curse Icon: 210pts

Do you think this will work?

By the way the rest of the army is:

Mage, Lv2, Seerstaff of Saphery - Lore of Life - Throne of Vines, Regrowth

32x Spearmen, Full Command, Scarecrow Banner

31x Spearmen, Full Command

20x Phoenix Guard, Full Command, Gleaming Pennant

6x Ellyrian Reavers, Bows, Full Command

Repeater Bolt Thrower

Overall Total: 1997pts

[edit: never mind, mixed up a couple rules]