Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Two DV Chosen squads is some heavy power weapon saturation, they’ll certainly make an impact! Plus their two Bolter guys usually protect the important ones from Overwatch. Those squads really like Icons of Wrath to guarantee making the charge.

I’m an advocate of Fiends of Slaanesh and I can see them beingnuseful with those squads, you don’t want people falling back and exposing a compact unit like that to firepower. I try to end melees on my terms - ie, in the Enemy turn so I can charge again.

Regarding the autocannon vs obliterator discussion. I feel that heavy support's priority will always be to take out opposing heavy support first before focusing down other things. (Unless the opposing heavy support is tanky, but not very deadly, in which case it would be safe to hit other stuff first and ignore it).

So, lets say you are facing a Azreal firebase, or a Gulliman firebase. Its then about being able to take out a big chunk of that firebase before they strike back and take out your heavy support. Obliterators excel in this role because even if opponent goes first, he can't target the obliterators. And if your shooting is hard enough, then you should be able to deplete his firebase even if it has that Azreal 4++ bubble and such. Because throw enough shooting at something, and it will die irregardless. Obliterators also have the number of shots and firepower enough to do significant damage, plus they are a great target for that slanaash strategem to allow them to shoot twice.

Once your opponent heavy support is depleted, it doesn't matter even if he gets to shoot back at your obliterators because by then, his damage potential is heavily nerfed.

For the same amount of points as 3 squads of obliterators, you might be able to take 4 squads of havocs. But 4 squads of havocs can be reduced to just two or worse if opponent gets to shoot first (assuming facing said Azreal or gulliman firebase). And then you are left with 2 squads of havocs shooting back. We can see who is going to win this shooting war.

I think its important to consider that you may face very heavy shooting, Be it gulliman firebase, Azreal firebase or IG. This is because the meta these days have to factor in facing Mortarion or Magnus lists as well. And the easiest way to counter a Mortarion or Magnus, is to bring enough heavy shooting, and hope that you go first and shoot them off the board.

This means that if you aren't facing a list with the ability to shoot a Mortarion or Magnus off the board in one round, it probably isn't a very competitive list.

And your own shooting has be shooty enough to match that kind of heavy shooting, or take out rival Mortarion or Magnus as well. (Unless you bring your own and fancy a melee duke out of Daemon Primarchs).

Thats why I feel that Autocannon havocs lose out to obliterators significantly. They don't have the punch, and they can also get shot off the board if opponent goes first. Maybe they aren't threatening enough to warrant being the focus of shooting. But that only means you are exposing what IS important to you to opponent shooting. That says even more about what they bring to the table compared to obliterators.

About that lascannon havoc in a bastion discussion. A Land Raider can carry troops up the board, costs over 300 points and has 16 wounds, T8 with 2+ save, and has 4 shots of lascannons (plus other guns). A lascannon squad in a bastian is like said land raider except without the moblity. Yet, most people have said land raiders are too pricey for what they do.

So, if a LR is too pricey, what makes a havoc lascannon squad in a bastian worth it? You are paying over 300 points for just 3 lascannon shots. Maybe that's ok if you get to fire those 4 lascannons the whole game. But the question is, what is the rest of your shooting, and why shouldn't the opponent kill that off before then focusing on your bastion with lascannon havocs?

If you have any other shooting (and you will) that is less fragile and worth shooting at, then as an opponent, I would kill off those first, because they are easy pickings. Be it hellbrutes, other havocs who are not in a bastian, etc. Then when there is nothing left to threaten my shooting except that one bastian las havocs, then I will focus fire on that and kill it.

If your opponent chooses to focus fire on something like your autocannon havoc squad or your bastian on turn 1, he is probably not very experienced. It is likely there will be far more valuable targets he really should be shooting at.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Two DV Chosen squads is some heavy power weapon saturation, they’ll certainly make an impact! Plus their two Bolter guys usually protect the important ones from Overwatch. Those squads really like Icons of Wrath to guarantee making the charge.

I’m an advocate of Fiends of Slaanesh and I can see them beingnuseful with those squads, you don’t want people falling back and exposing a compact unit like that to firepower. I try to end melees on my terms - ie, in the Enemy turn so I can charge again.

Yeah I am certainly excited to try them out! The sheer variety available through legions and strategems give so many options; I can't wait for Necrons to get their own codex. But for now (and potentially for the forseeable future), I'm a chaos player. Heck, I could see myself sticking with them even post necron codex.

Fiends of Slaanesh seem cool, especially since I planned to focus Slaanesh anyway for the extra shooting. I'll definitely look into them.

Does anyone prefer lascannons over autocannons for predators?

Anyone got some tips for a Word Bearer centric army? How would you go about it? I only ask because I have a bunch of cultists and a bastion in WB colours, and no idea what to do with them now! Ok so the bastion may just end up as terrain (which is fine), but I’d certainly like to use the cultists, and WB fluff is the best.

BillyN831 wrote:
Does anyone prefer lascannons over autocannons for predators?

Since they are basically the same cost math-hammer unequivocally shows that lascannon are better in every situation.

 buddha wrote:

BillyN831 wrote:
Does anyone prefer lascannons over autocannons for predators?

Since they are basically the same cost math-hammer unequivocally shows that lascannon are better in every situation.

T3 6+ one or two wound models, such as cultists? Both wound on twos, both instagib, and both deny them their save.

Admittedly niche, but not EVERY situation.

Agreed, I prefer the autocannon to the dual laz on my predators. Mathhammer wise they may come out the same but add a chaos lord and the number of hits on the auto cannon have a better chance to go up (statistically) than laz cannons due to more shots. Also auto cannons can kill more swarm units than dual laz can (Obviously you should not be using it for that but sometimes there are not better targets).

So in short I just like the flexibility of the ac.

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
Anyone got some tips for a Word Bearer centric army? How would you go about it? I only ask because I have a bunch of cultists and a bastion in WB colours, and no idea what to do with them now! Ok so the bastion may just end up as terrain (which is fine), but I’d certainly like to use the cultists, and WB fluff is the best.

Our Legion Warlord Trait is solid, we can have a large fire base with a single Lord directing their fire. He can sometimes reach a dropped Obliterators unit as well.

The main use of our Legion Trait is to save the occasional weapon specialist from running away. Along with our Watlord Trait, our Havocs Get some benefit.

Our Legion Relic is an ok choice for a DA accompanying Berzerkers.

Our stratagem is a gimmick and if you want to make use of it you'll need a gimmick list. Try dropping Slaaneshi or Nurglitch Possessed and Sorcerer out of a Dreadclaw, buffing the endurance of the Possessed, and next turn Summoning a Greater Daemon. As I say: gimmick.

Juggernauts and Steeds of Slaanesh are good character mounts and have synergy with a mounted Herald following a Rhino full of Possessed. Our old signature unit is now a decent unit with good endurance and fair melee ability.

Cultists are fantastic, make use of Tide of Traitors and have your nearly wiped out screening units regenerate and rendezvous with a deep insertion attack that wants an ObSec unit to hold ground.

Bastion is ok but if I'm paying 20PL for four lascannons with 20W I'll pay 21PL for a Spartan with twice the gun and a better save and wow how is this so cheap. TBH I'd use it for scenarios but probably not all comers.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Bastion is ok but if I'm paying 20PL for four lascannons with 20W I'll pay 21PL for a Spartan with twice the gun and a better save and wow how is this so cheap. TBH I'd use it for scenarios but probably not all comers.

Bastion - toughness 10, Spartan - toughness 8. Bastion laughs at missile launchers and lascannons and pretty much every anti-vehicle weapon. Spartan dies in a fire even with its save because everything firing at it reduces saves by 3 or 4.

In fact, the Spartan's own weapons:

Infernal Hunger - S8 melee, Spartan wound 4+, save 5+, 33% to damage, Bastion wound 5+, save 6+, 28% to damage. Spartan takes 17% more damage.
Twin Heavy Bolter - 6 x S5, Spartan wound 5+, save 3+, 11% to damage, Bastion wound 6+, save 4+, 8% to damage. Spartan takes 33% more damage.
Quad Lascannon - 4 x S9, Spartan wound 3+, save 5+, 44% to damage, Bastion wound 5+, save 6+, 28% to damage. Spartan takes 58% more damage.
Laser Destroyer - S12, Spartan wound 3+, save 6+, 55% to damage, Bastion wound 3+, save none, 67% to damage. Bastion takes 21% more damage.
Twin Heavy Flamer - 2d6 x S5, Spartan wound 5+, save 3+, 11% to damage, Bastion wound 6+, save 4+, 8% to damage. Spartan takes 33% more damage.
Havoc Launcher - d6 x S5, Spartan wound 5+, save 2+, 5% to damage, Bastion wound 6+, save 3+, 5% to damage. Both take identical damage.

The only time the Spartan is tankier is when being shot at by the Laser Destroyer, which you have to replace the Quad Lascannon to get. Since the Quad Lascannon is better at killing Spartans with its 4 shots and longer range, the laser is taken for anti-building stuff (since it's not 14 and doesn't wound better against T7 tanks).

It's still probably better than a bastion full of havocs for the point cost but it's FORGE WORLD. Since when is that anything new? Their stuff is grossly efficient to encourage overspenders.

 luke1705 wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:


My wife played against one of the Fire Raptor guys at the GT (maybe not the one you're referring to), and took great delight in popping it turn 1. Don't get me wrong... they're unbelievable, but the Oblits seem so much more (ironically) predictable in that they're not targets until they get to do a potentially withering amount of work. I think i'd trade other things to get the Raptor before I got rid of Oblits who are just stars right now (and who also didn't let me down even in my poorer performances at the tourney).

I was at the BFS GT. There were a couple women there but no one said they were married to you. To be fair, I didn’t ask.

There are some things that can pop the fire raptor, but I’m trying to keep the big 3 as mainstays in my list:

1) Magnus
2) Mortarion
3) Fire raptor

I want to make the oblits work but I don’t think I have enough left after those 3, and I think the first two take a lot of shooting away from the fire raptor, so I’m not as concerned about it’s durability

Yeah... I couldn't make it work either.

Best I can come up with w/o Oblits is something like:
=Air Wing=
-Fire Rapter w/ hellstrike & HB
-2x Hellblades with halestorm cannon

=Supreme=
-Morty
-3x Malefic Lords

=Supreme=
-Magnus
-2x Malefic Loards
-The Changeling

Leaving 203pts for summoning.

12 drops. Not horribad...

CPs are mainly to be used for re-rolling (I miss the old Fatey re-rolls )

To prevent alpha strike, I'd catty corner the deployment with the hellblades in front, long-wise... if my opponent wants to go after them... I'd be cool with that. The brothers can then go to town.

With summoning, I'd have flexibility and enough characters to summon various units turn 1.

Imma try this list soon... I'll report back.

Saw this, CSMs placed 4th in the first heat of the GT.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/742235.page

Anyone know if the actual lists are published?

I feel like I understand why the first place army placed where it did.

6 tactical squads with lascannons is roughly equivalent to the 3 20-man CSM squads I have been playing lately. Facing a large number of heavy weapons each turn is punishing, forces opponents to get in close to try and tie you up. Doesn't work out to be the the optimal strategy for many armies.

The six LasTac squads are one thing, the dozen Assault Cannon are another. Until we get to mount four or five Havoc Missile Launchers on a Rhino, I don't think we'll be doing much with the example.

How would we deal with this army? Looks like Noise Marine Kharybdis drops would hit hard. They'd have to be compact, to avoid Tigurius getting eaten, which would increase the thermal jets target saturation. Could probably avoid Tiggy's DTW coverage to keep the Warptime flowing.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Saw this, CSMs placed 4th in the first heat of the GT.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/742235.page

Anyone know if the actual lists are published?

I feel like I understand why the first place army placed where it did.

6 tactical squads with lascannons is roughly equivalent to the 3 20-man CSM squads I have been playing lately. Facing a large number of heavy weapons each turn is punishing, forces opponents to get in close to try and tie you up. Doesn't work out to be the the optimal strategy for many armies.

The list's workhorse was the Assault Cannon Razorbacks. You can run whatever else you feel like if you got six of those ready to go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lindsay40k wrote:
The six LasTac squads are one thing, the dozen Assault Cannon are another. Until we get to mount four or five Havoc Missile Launchers on a Rhino, I don't think we'll be doing much with the example.

How would we deal with this army? Looks like Noise Marine Kharybdis drops would hit hard. They'd have to be compact, to avoid Tigurius getting eaten, which would increase the thermal jets target saturation. Could probably avoid Tiggy's DTW coverage to keep the Warptime flowing.

You deal with it in the same manner you deal with vehicles currently. Kill those and then any objective holders. You could theoretically kill Rowboat if he's in front of everyone instead of being a cover camping coward for whatever reason, and then take the leftover objectives.

It really isn't a strong list.

I’m going to run a Lord of Skulls in a tournament just to try it out. What would be the best support to keep it running smoothly? A Warptime Sorcerer seems like a given, and the best legion to run it as seems like Iron Warriors for the 6+ fnp stratagem. What else would help?

 Badablack wrote:
I’m going to run a Lord of Skulls in a tournament just to try it out. What would be the best support to keep it running smoothly? A Warptime Sorcerer seems like a given, and the best legion to run it as seems like Iron Warriors for the 6+ fnp stratagem. What else would help?

So one list I have hadsome success with in testing is 2x Lord of Skulls paired with Abaddon, Chaos Terminator Lord, Sorcer with Jump pack(Spells are Death Hex and Prescience), and a squad of 5 terminators(Slaanash-marked) with combi-plas and lightning claws. Basically you deploy the skulls with abby in the middle on the table and everything else in reserves. Since you are aonly 6 drops I've gone first a fair amount and you deep strike the terminators, chaos lord and sorc lord on top of whatever is most threatening and blow it out of the water. Meanwhile, you can advance and shoot with the two LOS with abby making them reroll all misses.

If you don't want to get 2 LOS I would keep the same setup but maybe add a warpsmith and some cultists as chaff depending on what you have. At 1500 points I run a warpsmith with the LOS and it offers so much sustain on the model. between 2 and 4 wounds back a turn is a huge deal.

These are just my experiences and I am by no means a professional, but I figured I'd add my two sense,

Also everything is black legion obviously to benefit from abby. It doesn't do much for the LOS from a legion perscpetive, but re-rolling hits without spending a command point is amazing.

 whembly wrote:

Yeah... I couldn't make it work either.

-2x Hellblades with halestorm cannon

Hellblades ( which is my favourite chaos model ever ) is horribly sub-par.
He hits most of the thing on 4+, it's cheap but it's also useless....try to use it as a xyphon Interceptor count as, it's 80 points over the hellblade but you get 4 lascannons shot and a mortal wuond missile and it kills everything with FLY...

Yeah, if the four barrels on the Hellblade got four times the shots as the single barrel in the Helltalon (or even the latter’s POTMS equivalent), it’d be decent, but the firepower it has just isn’t doing it. I’ll maybe take mine for the CP from a full Flyer Wing now and then but it’s just not up scratch in general.

Darksteve wrote:

 Badablack wrote:
I’m going to run a Lord of Skulls in a tournament just to try it out. What would be the best support to keep it running smoothly? A Warptime Sorcerer seems like a given, and the best legion to run it as seems like Iron Warriors for the 6+ fnp stratagem. What else would help?

i cant decide between night lords and iron warriors for my lord of skulls

iron warriors you get the fnp, and fearless blobs to back it up
night lords you get the -1 to shoot at, which you dont have to trigger straight away, especially with 2 lord of skulls you can wait till they do 6-7 dmg, then trigger it, forcing them to decide whether to take bad shots or hit the undamaged one
night lords also has the morale bombs, which means you can spread your shots out more if you get other units up into range for a massive turn of killing potentially

I started using my Falchion. T9, 2+, 26W makes it fairly durable even against lascannons. I can one-shot Mortarion, Knights, super heavies, even Titans with the volcano cannon and still shoot all my other guns at other stuff.

Only problem is that "Everything Dies" is the title for this edition and that includes a monster tank. I struggle to justify having the volcano cannon when there just aren't enough super heavies on the board for it to shoot at. It will kill one thing no question every turn. But that thing will often die in a blaze of Overkill so tragically overpowering that it feels like a waste of shots. Like using a lascannon to kill a conscript. Except you're one-shotting a Wraith Knight in the same way.

What do you guys think? Can it be justified to bring a freakishly overqualified cannon to kill a single model, even if it means the rest of the game it's firing less efficiently?

Falcon nearly always pays itself off for me... even shooting predators etc it still earns 150pts at least a turn

the problem is that you struggle on objectives with it typically. especially if thier armies full of smaller units

 Arkaine wrote:
I started using my Falchion. T9, 2+, 26W makes it fairly durable even against lascannons. I can one-shot Mortarion, Knights, super heavies, even Titans with the volcano cannon and still shoot all my other guns at other stuff.

Only problem is that "Everything Dies" is the title for this edition and that includes a monster tank. I struggle to justify having the volcano cannon when there just aren't enough super heavies on the board for it to shoot at. It will kill one thing no question every turn. But that thing will often die in a blaze of Overkill so tragically overpowering that it feels like a waste of shots. Like using a lascannon to kill a conscript. Except you're one-shotting a Wraith Knight in the same way.

What do you guys think? Can it be justified to bring a freakishly overqualified cannon to kill a single model, even if it means the rest of the game it's firing less efficiently?

Hrm. It's worth it to take out Mortarion, he's just a beast that needs to be put down. It's not like you are going to run out of targets afterwards, DG lists tend not to have too many models.

But against most other things, no. I don't see a Falchion as a legitimate option against all lists, it's the most elite option you can go with.

 Arkaine wrote:
I started using my Falchion. T9, 2+, 26W makes it fairly durable even against lascannons. I can one-shot Mortarion, Knights, super heavies, even Titans with the volcano cannon and still shoot all my other guns at other stuff.

Only problem is that "Everything Dies" is the title for this edition and that includes a monster tank. I struggle to justify having the volcano cannon when there just aren't enough super heavies on the board for it to shoot at. It will kill one thing no question every turn. But that thing will often die in a blaze of Overkill so tragically overpowering that it feels like a waste of shots. Like using a lascannon to kill a conscript. Except you're one-shotting a Wraith Knight in the same way.

What do you guys think? Can it be justified to bring a freakishly overqualified cannon to kill a single model, even if it means the rest of the game it's firing less efficiently?

Not a "tournament list" but I posted my (hypothetical, soon to be real) Falchion 2k IW list earlier:



I just think it'd be very fun.

Seems legit with mild redundancy but I'd have to do the math to really judge it. You have lots of long range stuff that might die easily to deep strikers but that LOW definitely encourages people to kill it before everything else that is squishy.

I think it would depend on whether your enemy chooses to kill the Falchion first or not and if he actually brought the means to do so.

I'm hopeful FW will buff the twin volcano cannon, since the single volcano cannon is now 3D3.

6D3 shots... *drool*

Seeing new armies gaining CP back has me thinking They really dropped the ball on Khorne Daemonkin. Just imagine if they gained CPs as an actual "Blood Tithe" wiping out units to gain more CPs. Very thematic. But... Give the good buffs to eldar and Imperials instead.

brugner8 wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Yeah... I couldn't make it work either.

-2x Hellblades with halestorm cannon

Hellblades ( which is my favourite chaos model ever ) is horribly sub-par.
He hits most of the thing on 4+, it's cheap but it's also useless....try to use it as a xyphon Interceptor count as, it's 80 points over the hellblade but you get 4 lascannons shot and a mortal wuond missile and it kills everything with FLY...

...good points.

Not a big fan of proxying in tournaments. I'm thinking to replace the helblades with a pair of drakes.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Seeing new armies gaining CP back has me thinking They really dropped the ball on Khorne Daemonkin. Just imagine if they gained CPs as an actual "Blood Tithe" wiping out units to gain more CPs. Very thematic. But... Give the good buffs to eldar and Imperials instead.

The CSM codex is probably the best in the game right now. Maybe slightly behind Guard. With a bit of borrowing from the rest of the Chaos family we are the strongest faction.

The Eldar stuff they've previewed honestly looks very average.

 whembly wrote:

brugner8 wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Yeah... I couldn't make it work either.

-2x Hellblades with halestorm cannon

Hellblades ( which is my favourite chaos model ever ) is horribly sub-par.
He hits most of the thing on 4+, it's cheap but it's also useless....try to use it as a xyphon Interceptor count as, it's 80 points over the hellblade but you get 4 lascannons shot and a mortal wuond missile and it kills everything with FLY...

...good points.

Not a big fan of proxying in tournaments. I'm thinking to replace the helblades with a pair of drakes.

Remenber that tactical role for drakes and aircraft it's completely different

Drakes are useful to early stop units from shooting/moving and to engage powerful anti tank unit in cac. They can be hit without penalties and they have a ridicolous short range weapon, so you have to be really close to the enemy. They are worth IF you need to gain a turn of two for other unit to came in range, it's high probable that for the second turn they will be shot to death.

Supersonic aircraft are -1 to hit and can outrange standard infantry weapons, so you can stay far and safe from massed fire, they are dedicated to kill specific targets or for aerial supremacy.

saint_red wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Seeing new armies gaining CP back has me thinking They really dropped the ball on Khorne Daemonkin. Just imagine if they gained CPs as an actual "Blood Tithe" wiping out units to gain more CPs. Very thematic. But... Give the good buffs to eldar and Imperials instead.

The CSM codex is probably the best in the game right now. Maybe slightly behind Guard. With a bit of borrowing from the rest of the Chaos family we are the strongest faction.

The Eldar stuff they've previewed honestly looks very average.

The Eldar traits are...okay I guess. However, the real issue is pricing on everything. If everyone gets a small discount, the codex could be even with everything besides AdMech (blech) and Guard, which would be a pleasant surprise.