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Instead of a second weapon, a wraithlord may take a wraithshield - 30 pts.

Wraithshield
A wraithshield consists of a powerful force shield generator mounted on the shoulder, and shield focal nodes embedded in the wraithbone all across the body. It confers a 4+ invulnerable save.

Thoughts?

Hmm, sounds very good, would work good in conjunction with a Wraithsword.

I'm a bit leery of it, since its taking one of the toughest critters in the game and nearly doubling its survivability. Strikes me as cheap for only 30 points and one less gun.

Jack

Hmmm...I don't know. I like the idea, and think it would look cooler to have a physical shield - but this would make them very hard, even harder than they are now - which is, to say, a lot. Perhaps 5+ Inv at 40pts or some sort of field that reshapes the Wraithbone - giving it something akin to 'nid Regeneration at 25pts? I wouldn't be against play testing either idea...and why not?

I say give it a test. Couldn't hurt.

lhysokidae wrote:I say give it a test. Couldn't hurt.

On it.

It could work really well if it was required to be combined with a sword.

With a sword+shield, you'd have possibly the best tar-pitting unit in the game. With it's limited number of attacks, it wouldn't be ridiculous in CC, and obviously not in shooting. Yes, it'd be nearly impossible to kill (especially with fortune), but would have a hard time killing anything. Factor in that it can't be transported and no fleet, and you've got a challenge of even getting it into CC. Seems balanced.

With a shield+gun, I think it would be too good. It would become just a mobile heavy weapon that is impossible to kill. Even against massed Lascannon fire, it would make up it points easily simply in how many shots would have to go to it and not to your tanks. People would treat it like a Monolith and simply ignore it.

As soon as you drop the wraithlord to T6, we can talk about invulnerable saves. You've already got something that's essentially a walker that's immune to grenades, AP1, and the melta rule, I really don't think making it harder to kill is appropriate.

They did it with SM terminators (Stormshield). so why wouldnt there be one for the wraithlords? But of course it would be expensive...

Invuln saves for wraithlords is a bad plan, for the single reason of fortune. You give it a 4+ and fortune it, and its basically unkillable.

Giving termies a invuln is completely different from giving wraithlords an invuln.

Termies are T4 - you can stack wounds and make them fail saves. Wraithlords are T8. The number of wounding weapons is significantly smaller.

Termies can't be fortuned. You give a terminator a 5+ invuln without upgrades and he saves 33% of all wounds. You give a wraithlord a 5+ invuln, then he gets fortuned, and he has better than a 4+ save.

goggari wrote:They did it with SM terminators (Stormshield). so why wouldnt there be one for the wraithlords? But of course it would be expensive...

It doesn't need to be expensive. If you have to have a sword in order to take the shield, the WL just becomes an impossible to kill model with little to no killing power of its own. That makes it an interesting option, but no OP.

And, yes, BearersOfSalvation, the Wraithlord is intended to be a non-vehicle dread. It is immune to melta and stuff like that, but it is also nearly impossible to get it a cover save, and AP 2 and 3 are very effective against it. It also can't deep strike. In 4th ed, it was harder to kill than a Dread. In 5th, with the re-arranged vehicle damage tables, I think it's actually easier to kill. Giving it an upgrade to increase survivability would be prudent.

Grakmar wrote:And, yes, BearersOfSalvation, the Wraithlord is intended to be a non-vehicle dread. It is immune to melta and stuff like that, but it is also nearly impossible to get it a cover save, and AP 2 and 3 are very effective against it.

Where are you getting this? AP2 and 3 are not very effective against it, neither is AP1. Plasma weapons (AP2) only wound on a 5, lots of AP3 weapons can't even hurt it (sternguard special ammo). AP1 weapons get dropped to AP2 against it, and melta weapons lose their extra strength. Meanwhile, it blocks 2/3 of all AP4 attacks that can even hurt it, so those autocannons that scare AV12 make it snicker a bit. A few heavy weapons that are generally painfully expensive to take in quantity do OK against it, but none are what I'd call 'very effective', especially since none of them slow it down in the least until they've accumulated enough hits to kill it outright - it never gets immobilized or loses it's offensive capability. Oh, and it doesn't have rear armor, so doesn't care about being in the middle of my guys.

It also can't deep strike. In 4th ed, it was harder to kill than a Dread. In 5th, with the re-arranged vehicle damage tables, I think it's actually easier to kill. Giving it an upgrade to increase survivability would be prudent.

If I hit a land raider with 3 multi-melta speeders, a tac squad with a melta gun and combi melta, and a multi-melta from another squad, odds are it's dead. If I hit a wraithlord with the same, odds are it still has 1 wound and functions at 100%. A land raider will hesitate to come near the tac squad because it knows there's a good chance it will be taken out, the wraithlord knows that the tac squad has a 0% chance to take it out (only 2 shots but 3 wounds). And the combarison is much worse with an AV12 dred, especially if some of my units can get behind it.

Giving a unit that's sort of a vehicle but is already that resistant to what's normally the best AT fire an invulnerable save is a bit much. Making that invulnerable save rerollable (yay edlar psychers) is even more. Combine that with always cover-saved skimmers that always take the lesser of two vehicle damage results, and it's absurdly overpowered. For objective missions, you can easily put something nigh-indestructable on all but one objective, then use the rest of your army to clear that one. For KP missions, having a bunch of nigh-indestructible units that can tie the opponenet endlessly in HtH is game-winning too.

Eldar are already good at the 'reserve, then rush and you can't kill us' bit, making them even better at it is not 'prudent'. It's a really abusive unit,

goggari wrote:They did it with SM terminators (Stormshield). so why wouldnt there be one for the wraithlords? But of course it would be expensive...

Was this a joke? Terminators are T4, you can bring them down with basic weapons and non-powerfist attacks. There is a HUGE difference between saves on a T4, 1 wound model and a T8, 3 wound model, since one can be hurt by virtually any attack while the other is vulnerable only to a handful of weapons. It's especially bad when you consider the nigh-indestructable holo-field skimmers Eldar can combine this with.

So take some Lascannons. They tend to chew right through Wraithlords. Wound on a 3+, no armor save.

Even Krak missiles are effective against them.

Space Marines have plenty of options to deal with Wraithlords, it's not my problem if you only take melta.

I'd really like it if there were a unit that could break up the current all mech metagame.

i Find Posion works wonders against it ^^

Spam some Termagaunts with Posion glands or whatever its called. and its Fethed really ;-)

Did the same at a tourney not 2 days ago. Killed it with my GUO that had noxious touch ;-)

Grakmar wrote:So take some Lascannons. They tend to chew right through Wraithlords. Wound on a 3+, no armor save. Even Krak missiles are effective against them. Space Marines have plenty of options to deal with Wraithlords, it's not my problem if you only take melta. It's your problem

Actually, it's YOUR problem if you're trying to convince me that giving a 4+ invulnerable save to your already tough wraithlords that benefit from your can-reroll-invulnerable-saves psychic powers and work with your move 24" from reserve 4+ cover save take the lightest of 2 damage rolls tanks and transports to contest objectives. Yeah dude, I should just work an extra 9 lascannons to be able to kill your 3 wraithlords over the course of the game presuming no LOS problems, the fact that I don't dedicate 820 points worth of guys in a general purpose list to dealing wtih one special ruled unit that you propose clearly shows that I just build sucky lists.

Trying to create a piece of super-cheese to make it easier for your army to win, then saying that it's the opponent's problem that your unit is unbalanced is not the way to convince people to adopt your house rules. "Ohh, take lascannons, it's not my fault you take weapons that can actually kill my holo-fielded skimmers" probably makes you feel like Mr. Super Listmaker to say, but it's not going to change anyone's mind about your overpowered special rules. Especially when your proposed rule gives you a 75% chance to ignore shots from the weapons you recommend taking.

BoS, what was said about 'lords being easier to put down than dreads is true. You need to score 2 wounds, and if you treat them like a tank think of them as a Walker with AV12 that is guaranteed to wreck after two penetrations. Stick a serpent shield on it if it makes it more believable.
It cost nearly the same as an SM dreadnought but comes worse equipped and is vulnerable to No Retreat!. And here's the killer; it's heavy support and competes with the most important units in the Eldar army list.

If you make it a 5+ for 45pts, it would probably work better, as a wraithlord is already t8 band has something like 5 wounds and a 2+ armour.

CommissarCandlestick wrote:If you make it a 5+ for 45pts, it would probably work better, as a wraithlord is already t8 band has something like 5 wounds and a 2+ armour.

It is T8, but it only has 3 wounds and a 3+ armor.

Mahtamori wrote:BoS, what was said about 'lords being easier to put down than dreads is true.

No, it's not true. They're immune to grenades, can't be shot in the rear, don't take incremental damage, get saves against shots that can hurt dreds with no save, immune to the bonus for ordnance, melta, and MCs. The slight vulnerability (still get 3+ saves) to sniper/poisoned weapons isn't more severe than their extreme resilience to anti-vehicle weapons, the 36 sniper shots needed on average to kill one are beyond what 1 or even 2 sniper squads can do quickly. A 4 attack ST6 MC will likely rip a fresh dred to pieces in 1-2 rounds since it penetrates on most hits, but it can only wound the wraithlord on a 6 so needs an average of 9 rounds to down it. Any squad with krak grenades has a decent chance at downing a dred, a squad without a marine powerfist can't scratch the wraithlord.

You need to score 2 wounds, and if you treat them like a tank think of them as a Walker with AV12 that is guaranteed to wreck after two penetrations.

Where are you getting this from? You need 3 wounds to take them down unless all of my local Eldar are lying about stats. Scoring 2 wounds on a wraithlord is worthless, it still fights at 100% effectiveness. The comparison would be more accurate if you said they're like a walker but with 12 rear armor instead of 10 (so don't care about guys behind them), a 3+ save against the lighter AV weapons (autocannons and assault cannons, for example), completely immune to grenades, and they jump to AV 15-16 or so against melta and MCs, ignore ordnance rules, but are technically possible to kill with snipers if you have a lot and get multiple turns to shoot. Edit: Forgot to mention that while they auto-die after 3 pens, they are also completely immune to the other results on the table too, so need a rule to ignore stunned, shaken, weapon destroyed, and immobilized.

You're in denial if you think that wraithlords are easier to kill than drednoughts under typical game conditions. Pretending that they only have 2/3 of their usual wounds and exaggerating the vulnerability to snipers isn't going to cut it. Giving them 75% resistance (with appropriate power use) to the stuff that normally kills them effectively is just nuts, especially in HtH where they're already extremely resistant to stuff that destroys regular walkers. As they are, they're a reasonable unit, but giving them an effective 12 (6 with no power used) wounds against AP 1, 2, and 3 heavy weapons and anything that can hurt them in melee is just a bad plan.

You can't argue about an invun save for a WL while including fortune.
Its a different unit, Fortune is payed for already.

Does every model in BA have an icreased cost because they "could" get FNP? no...

So you can't argue about the shield by saying "but you can fortune it, wah wah wah", if your going to you better be including vulkan in your calculation to see how effective melta is.

All I think a Wraithlord needs is immunity to poison and 2+ save. Invulnerable save on a T8 MC is not something we'll ever going to see. Unless that MC is a C'tan and/or costs a small army's worth of points.

What he does need is the Wraithsword to first of all exclude him from taking the wraithsight tests, secondly forbid any ranged weapons from being taken, thirdly give him +1 to attacks and +1 WS with rerolls to hit. And lastly up its cost to +50 points instead of +10.

The alternative is lowering his toughness to 6 and giving him 2+/4++ . I like this one, but as long as the Wraithguard are also T6, it's unrealistic that their much larger cousin to be anything below T7.

BoS: I confused their wound with attack stat and didn't bother returning to the thread to fix the typo. I don't know of any anti-tank weapons that's Ap4 or worse, but I don't know all codices, if we ignore Haywire grenades and similar. While my Wraithlords have a tendency to die before they make it into close combat, they also have a generally worse melee statistic than most dreadnoughts for their points (strictly worse offence in general, point for point). I do believe I addressed the issue with melta weapons (serpent shield).
Your estimate of 100 points worth of a re-rolled 4+ invulnerable save is also tragic. Shoot the Farseer since he's so damned close to the 'lord and you get a good chance of the Wraithlord not being able to do anything plus remove it's re-roll. Since we're discussing AT weapons, you've got 42% chance to kill the Farseer per shot you hit with (he can't fortune himself if he's cast it on the 'lord). Killing the Farseer is a much worse blow to the Eldar than killing the Wraithlord.

You also seem to ignore that you'd pay 30 points and a weapon upgrade slot for this ability, and this is the most important thing in the suggestion here!

P.S. a Wraithlord is also not immune to 3 rolls of shaken and/or stunned.

Mahtamori wrote:Shoot the Farseer since he's so damned close to the 'lord and you get a good chance of the Wraithlord not being able to do anything plus remove it's re-roll. Since we're discussing AT weapons, you've got 42% chance to kill the Farseer per shot you hit with (he can't fortune himself if he's cast it on the 'lord). Killing the Farseer is a much worse blow to the Eldar than killing the Wraithlord.

Well, if you leave your Farseer out on his own, he deserves to die a horrible, horrible death.

Grakmar wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Shoot the Farseer since he's so damned close to the 'lord and you get a good chance of the Wraithlord not being able to do anything plus remove it's re-roll. Since we're discussing AT weapons, you've got 42% chance to kill the Farseer per shot you hit with (he can't fortune himself if he's cast it on the 'lord). Killing the Farseer is a much worse blow to the Eldar than killing the Wraithlord.

Well, if you leave your Farseer out on his own, he deserves to die a horrible, horrible death.

True enough, but my point is that the Wraithlord isn't necessarily the best target if there's a Farseer nearby fortuning it. The point that the Farseer pays for his psychic powers and presence has already been made.

Disclaimer: The psychic powers themselves cost extortionately compared to other armies, but the multi-power ability is relatively cheap. The Farseer isn't an expensive model prior to upgrades (mandatory or otherwise) and is quite resilient for a T3 model. All in all, I suppose the Farseer is one of the most accurately costed models in the Eldar codex at present, although I'd personally like to see him modernized.

Mahtamori wrote:BoS: I confused their wound with attack stat and didn't bother returning to the thread to fix the typo. I don't know of any anti-tank weapons that's Ap4 or worse, but I don't know all codices, if we ignore Haywire grenades and similar.

Autocannons (S7 AP4 H2) are extremely popular for marine, guard, and chaos to take for cracking transports and do OK against AV12, and assault cannons (S6 AP4 H4) are well liked by marines, especially Blood Angels. Just about every marine list advice thread mentions rifleman (2x TLAC) dreds, they're not some obscure weapon I drug out on a technicality.

While my Wraithlords have a tendency to die before they make it into close combat, they also have a generally worse melee statistic than most dreadnoughts for their points (strictly worse offence in general, point for point). I do believe I addressed the issue with melta weapons (serpent shield).

Their offensive stats are basically irrelevant here, we're discissing a massive increase to their already high defensive stats. An unkillable unit to tie things in HtH forever or to permanently contest objectives doesn't need a lot of offense to be abusively overpowered.

Your estimate of 100 points worth of a re-rolled 4+ invulnerable save is also tragic. Shoot the Farseer since he's so damned close to the 'lord and you get a good chance of the Wraithlord not being able to do anything plus remove it's re-roll. Since we're discussing AT weapons, you've got 42% chance to kill the Farseer per shot you hit with (he can't fortune himself if he's cast it on the 'lord). Killing the Farseer is a much worse blow to the Eldar than killing the Wraithlord.

When discussing whether a rule is balanced, one presumes that the person using the unit is a decent player and not an incompetent idiot. Someone sensible will have the farseer joined to a unit or riding in a transport, they won't just stand him out to be shot.

Evaluating a house rule is about 'what could someone do with this', not 'is this OK if it's not used well? That's why I combine it with fortune, because your proposed rule ALLOWS it to be combined with fortune, so I look at worst-case. If you had a rule that psychic powers could not be used on the unit, then I wouldn't take it into account.

P.S. a Wraithlord is also not immune to 3 rolls of shaken and/or stunned.

How exactly do they take something equivalent to shaken or stunned results? They take 2 'penetrating hits' that cause no additional effects, they don't take any degrading effects like regular vehicles do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dayve110 wrote:You can't argue about an invun save for a WL while including fortune.
Its a different unit, Fortune is payed for already.

I most certainly can argue that a proposed rule is bad based on how it interacts with the rest of the army, and I did. It doesn't matter whether fortune is paid for in another slot in the army list, what matters is the effect it has on the game.

Does every model in BA have an icreased cost because they "could" get FNP? no...

The prices of all models in the BA codex take into account all of their special abilities. Anyone proposing a new rule for BAs would need to take into account how it would interact with FNP, descent of angels, fast rhinos, and all other BA special abilities. Ignoring how special rules would interact with the rest of the army is stupid.

So you can't argue about the shield by saying "but you can fortune it, wah wah wah", if your going to you better be including vulkan in your calculation to see how effective melta is.

Accusing people who disagree with your pet rule of crying "wah wah wah" doesn't make your rule any better, it just makes it clear that you don't have a good argument. Any proposal for some sort of super-melta for marines should include what happens when you take it with Vulkan in the list, but we're not discussing any proposed rules for marines here.

Love the idea, though 5+ invul and 30pts makes more sense (4+ would cause too much crying). 45+ pts you are looking at 50% of the model's cost so cheaper to just field another.

BlueDagger wrote:Love the idea, though 5+ invul and 30pts makes more sense

When you factor in fortune, this is definitely more reasonable.