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At the start of the game if you have a squad with two independent characters attached to it at the time that you roll for Red Thirst, do they get it if the squad rolls it?

1. Normally the independent characters are not eligable. But in the Red Thirst rule it says "the entire squad" gets feel no pain and furious charge benefits whether one or more in the unit got it.

2. In the rules on p.48 under independent characters – special rules states: “Unless specified in the rule itself the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the character…” The Red Thirst rule doesn’t say that independent characters get it specifically but it does say the entire squad does.

So which is it?

Thanks ahead of time...

Tancredwest

Deja Vu. We just went around in circles on this.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/316153.page

Fearless transfers to any Independent Character joining a unit, Furious Charge does not.

Oh gawds not this again. The link provided is a very good resource.

For the record: The IC doesn't get FC because he doesn't have TRT, but gets Fearless indirectly.

Gwar! wrote:Oh gawds not this again. The link provided is a very good resource.

For the record: The IC doesn't get FC because he doesn't have TRT, but gets Fearless indirectly.

True.

Rules have to specifically say that they have an effect on IC's joining a unit (Like fearless). Since TRT does not say it has an effect on IC's, Then the IC's do not benefit from it.

DeathReaper wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Oh gawds not this again. The link provided is a very good resource.

For the record: The IC doesn't get FC because he doesn't have TRT, but gets Fearless indirectly.

True.

Rules have to specifically say that they have an effect on IC's joining a unit (Like fearless). Since TRT does not say it has an effect on IC's, Then the IC's do not benefit from it.

And here's where the argument gets started again. Rules do not have to say they have an affect on independant characters. What you're referring to is whether or not special rules (and USRs) get conferred to independant characters (meaning the independant character obtains the rule, not that he can't be affected by it), which they don't. However, this isn't a rule being conferred to a special character, this is a rule affecting an entire unit - the same unit that the special character is attached to. The special character need not have TRT to be affected by it.

But, I will stop here. Read the thread listed above.

I have read the other post and have generated a few questions:

1) Are squad/unit the same thing. --- Unless someone can point out where RAW distinguishes the two, you have to assume these two are the same thing.

2) Is an IC "Part of a squad/unit" --- Lets use the "walks like a duck, quacks like a duck" logic for a minute. Assume an IC is joined to a squad/unit...
a) If you shoot at the squad/unit, can the IC be allocated some of the wounds? -- Yes
b) If the squad/unit has a piece of wargear, does the IC benifit? -- Yes
c) With the Only exception being in the movement phase if the IC decides to leave the squad/unit, Does the IC operate with the squad/unit in Every Phase of the players turn? -- Yes
d) Is it possible for the IC to confer rules to the squad/unit and for the squad/unit to confer rules to the IC? -- Yes (this doesn't happen all the time, but there are rules/units that do confer)
e) Is there any time he can be singled out from the unit? -- Yes (BUT [that is a very big but] these rules are not much different than the rules that let me target the powerfist/assult weapon -- all based upon base-to-base contact)
f) This is from Pg 49 "Independant Characters & Assaults" If a unit that has been joined by an independent character assaults into close combat, the character assaults too, as it is part of the unit. Please note that there are several other places that say the same thing.
2a) Lets look at some events should he be deamed "not" part of the unit.
a) Lets say our frendly IC has joined a 5-man termie squad with a Librarian. The librarian uses GoI. Did the IC get left behind? If he is not part of the unit, he did.
b) Lets use an example from the other post that no one seemed to want to comment on...Our frendly IC is in a 5 man Assault Squad in a spread formation (all models in a straight line, 2" apart) and the IC is on the end. On the other end is a Sanguinary Priest in a unit of Scouts. Does the IC get the benifits from Blood Chalice? He is more than 6" from the priest, so he does not.

So I believe the IC quacks and walks like a duck...

3) Does the IC benifit from TRT. Being as TRT is not a USR it does not fall into the USR restrictions. Even in the USR's only a few are actually lost by a IC joining. So the unit (As Brought To The Table) is a 10 man Assault Term Squad with a Sanguinary Priest and a Librarian.
a) The Sanguinary Priest has a Blood Chalice. Not everyone has a BC, but everyone is affected.
b) The Librarian uses his Shield power. Not everyone has Shield, but everyone is affected.
c) The Unit takes a TRT test and fails(passes, whatever). Not everyone has TRT, but everyone is affected.
All of these events happen in a specific stage of the game AFTER it has started.

Here is some more fuel ... the IC leaving the unit DOES NOT remove the effect. The entire squad is treated...for the duration of the game.

Two things could change my opinion ...

1) Direct ruling from GW (maybe INAT)
2) Someone pointing out in the BRB that there is a specific difference between squad and unit in definition form.

Not to sound like a d-bag, but I would like someone besides Gwar! to respond. His opinions are well documented and there is no need for him to rehash his specific arguments. Please read both posts and make your own informed decision.

@Gwar! ... I read all of your posts and I tend to agree and disagree in equal preportions with what you are saying. My main counter to your arguement is TRT isn not an ability, it is an event that happens in the game. It is th same as someone using a power, it is just involentary as opposed to character controlled.

Arschbombe wrote:Deja Vu. We just went around in circles on this.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/316153.page

Yeah, seems this one might need some more mulling over for a while yet, we're just repeating the last thread almost entirely otherwise.