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In reading a previous article (Less considered IG Options) I find that I am in the same place with my guard. I've noticed recently with them as well that I seem to lean heavily on this unbridled need to get to stuck in (I blame three years of playing Khorne). While not a viable option with the classic vet build I begging to think my troubles with the guard is playing to a list that is provided by the typical tourney strategy and not one that I am comfortable playing. I am wondering if a Rough Rider's build would offer any competative play; competative play that stands against the typical rhino spams and duel lash combos proving to be so lethal.

The basic idea would be a list roughly 2000 points with all the typical IG hallmarks (i.e. vets w/ meltas, blob squads etc.) but replace the classic 3 vendettas with 3 squads of 10 rough riders, 30 in all with metla bombs, and two melta guns all of which would be the exact same points as the 3 vendettas (130 points).

To clarify, would a tourney 2000 point IG army be better, worse, or no different with 30 rough riders or 3 ven/valks loaded with vets.

I appreciate any feedback. Thanks.

You can definitely get stuck in with guard. RR's should be taken in 10-man squads, with no special upgrades (except perhaps a meltabomb for the sarge).

A 1500-pt infancty deathlist would look something like this:

CCS 4x plasma - 110

PCS 3x melta - 60
30-dude power blob with priest/3x meltabombs - 300

PCS 3x melta - 60
30-dude power blob with priest/3x meltabombs - 300

PCS 3x melta - 60
30-dude power blob with priest/2x meltabombs - 295

10 rough riders - 105
10 rough riders - 105
10 rough riders - 105

Pure assault and chop. For 500 more points, perhaps 2 groups of 6 ogryn or another power blob, except with al'rahem and an astropath in the CCS.

Would make a former khornite twist with glee.

That sounds like the carnage I want. Any tank support you'd recommend? Perhaps heavy weapons team or do you think the mob of grenades, eviscerators (which I hadn't thought of by the way)
and melta bombs would do the work against heay armor?

i would reccomend some normal russes with lascannons.

you will have trouble with true hordes as they will match your infantry with better infantry and your melta guns will do little to them in return. lascannons will help against Monoliths which will laugh off your melta(although it isn't nessicary as your blobs will win by forcing Phase out)

Ailaros wrote:You can definitely get stuck in with guard. RR's should be taken in 10-man squads, with no special upgrades (except perhaps a meltabomb for the sarge).

A 1500-pt infancty deathlist would look something like this:

CCS 4x plasma - 110

PCS 3x melta - 60
30-dude power blob with priest/3x meltabombs - 300

PCS 3x melta - 60
30-dude power blob with priest/3x meltabombs - 300

PCS 3x melta - 60
30-dude power blob with priest/2x meltabombs - 295

10 rough riders - 105
10 rough riders - 105
10 rough riders - 105

Pure assault and chop. For 500 more points, perhaps 2 groups of 6 ogryn or another power blob, except with al'rahem and an astropath in the CCS.

Would make a former khornite twist with glee.

I think power blobs are cool, and rough riders probably have their place as well, but you can't have an army entirely composed of them. In this list, your ranged firepower is 4 plasmaguns and 9 meltas, concentrated into the smallest and most vulnerable units. Against any mobile, mechanised enemy, you're going to fail cover saves on the guys with guns, and then your opponent will spend the rest of the game laughing while you chase him about with meltabombs. I think it would be far better to include power blobs or roughriders in a list that has actual ranged support. Then you can use rough riders as a hidden or reserve counter-attack. As this idea stands now, some armies will outmaneouver and shoot you to death, and some armies (orks, anything else properly good in assault, anything with lots of flamers) will simply meet you head-on and win. Power blobs of guard are an effective assault unit, but they don't win games unsupported.

The thing with mass infantry armies is that they dominate field position. With so many guys, and with 12" charge krak grenade dues (the riders), your opponent may be mobile, but there will simply be nowhere on the board that they can fly to that isn't close to your stuff. Board saturation can EASILY be achieved with 140 dudes and proper spacing.

It doesn't matter if they can run quickly if there's nowhere for them to run to. If you're really worried about it, though, 500 points can give you 3 manticores.

As for facing off against enemy hordes, I think grey templar underestimates the power of a 30-dude priestly powerblob.

o belive me i fear the blob

my switch to gunline marines was after meeting the power of the blob at close range.


i just am saying that 30 guardsmen(power weapons and commisars all) will get stomped by 30 orks. heck even 15-20 orks(30 after casualities) will stomp them.

does depend on who gets the charge though.

man do i fear the blob, 60 doods coming on right next to me (f****** spearhead) lead by yarrik and buffed by strakken killed all up, 10 stormboys 10 lootas and 43 boys in one game. And that was just his lolz unit!!

Alex Beisel wrote:In reading a previous article (Less considered IG Options) I find that I am in the same place with my guard. I've noticed recently with them as well that I seem to lean heavily on this unbridled need to get to stuck in (I blame three years of playing Khorne). While not a viable option with the classic vet build I begging to think my troubles with the guard is playing to a list that is provided by the typical tourney strategy and not one that I am comfortable playing. I am wondering if a Rough Rider's build would offer any competative play; competative play that stands against the typical rhino spams and duel lash combos proving to be so lethal.

The basic idea would be a list roughly 2000 points with all the typical IG hallmarks (i.e. vets w/ meltas, blob squads etc.) but replace the classic 3 vendettas with 3 squads of 10 rough riders, 30 in all with metla bombs, and two melta guns all of which would be the exact same points as the 3 vendettas (130 points).

To clarify, would a tourney 2000 point IG army be better, worse, or no different with 30 rough riders or 3 ven/valks loaded with vets.

I appreciate any feedback. Thanks.

I would advise you mix your FA choices....the RR and skimmers have different roles, both of which may be needed depending on the circumstances....the RR are there mainly for insurance purposes, as a counter attack choice. There will be some games where you will not even need them, as your shooting has obliterated anything threatening...it's only here that the RR switch to an offensive purpose (unless you are fighting Tau, then the RR become offensive immediately)....ergo I find 3 units of RR a bit too redundant...

The skimmer + vets are there to outflank or scout, and claim objectives. So I would say frankly that they have more uses and can apply to every game.

I thus advise to mix both options. Because having both gives you more flexibility, and because YES THE GUARD CAN!!!!

That list doesn't look dangerous. I'd hit it with ordinance and lasgun spam when it gets in range. Even basic lasguns tear apart rough riders. Also, RR can't crack transports then assault stuff inside of them. If they assault my chimera and destroy it, they could get FRFSRF'd with 25-ish shots from that squad (crushing them completely.)

Since all your firepower is outputting absolutely nothing on turn 1, nothing significant on turn 2 probably, maybe a little on turn 3, it looks like giving the enemy free shooting domination. The CCS on foot with only 4 guys is likely a free-kill. It's not even excessively powerful in melee.

He sends one unit up, it guns rough riders or a blob a ton, you assault and kill the small fodder unit (you're now bunched up.) He drives some chimeras up and hits your bunched-up-guys with 2 heavy flamers, boom, expensive assault unit or blob destroyed. Also, rough riders are only S3/I3 without power weapons UNLESS they destroy them. So if you charge a 10-man infantry squad that's gunning down your RR, you have to choose between S3 normal attacks and attacking simultaneously, or having that entire RR squad have to use S3 normal attacks in subsequent fights.

I don't think I can advocate a T3 5+ armor save army that has one-use-only not-suck lances. What if he shoots 2 units down? the 1 unit will assault once then lose all killing power entirely. If 3 units of ork bikerz are rushing at me, that 1 unit that survives is a threat for multiple turns. Roughs are not.

TheBloodGod wrote:That list doesn't look dangerous. I'd hit it with ordinance and lasgun spam when it gets in range. Even basic lasguns tear apart rough riders. Also, RR can't crack transports then assault stuff inside of them. If they assault my chimera and destroy it, they could get FRFSRF'd with 25-ish shots from that squad (crushing them completely.)

Since all your firepower is outputting absolutely nothing on turn 1, nothing significant on turn 2 probably, maybe a little on turn 3, it looks like giving the enemy free shooting domination. The CCS on foot with only 4 guys is likely a free-kill. It's not even excessively powerful in melee.

He sends one unit up, it guns rough riders or a blob a ton, you assault and kill the small fodder unit (you're now bunched up.) He drives some chimeras up and hits your bunched-up-guys with 2 heavy flamers, boom, expensive assault unit or blob destroyed. Also, rough riders are only S3/I3 without power weapons UNLESS they destroy them. So if you charge a 10-man infantry squad that's gunning down your RR, you have to choose between S3 normal attacks and attacking simultaneously, or having that entire RR squad have to use S3 normal attacks in subsequent fights.

I don't think I can advocate a T3 5+ armor save army that has one-use-only not-suck lances. What if he shoots 2 units down? the 1 unit will assault once then lose all killing power entirely. If 3 units of ork bikerz are rushing at me, that 1 unit that survives is a threat for multiple turns. Roughs are not.

RR are still a threat to vehicles with a rear armor of 10 (which is most of them) as they have krak G standard....if the enemy has a vehicle firebase which is relatively stationary (meaning non moving or moving at combat speed), then those are the perfect target for RRs....and this is not theory..it is based on actual use....have knocked out predators and vindicators this way...enemy players do not expect the RR to go after their vehicles, and also underestimate the range of cavalry.....

The RR then get whittled down if the target tanks explodes, but hell by that time the RR already deserve medals and citations!!!

May you lance some kids that think all IG play mech.

This will certainly turn some heads, even if it doesn't win the tourney. I agree RR can be a threat to transports, but I doubt they'll be alive the turn after they charge, as they'll be shot to hell in tournament games.

My biggest issue with rough riders is their durability, but have you considered fielding them along with vets in chimeras and have the rough riders run around behind the chimera wall? That way they get cover or aren't seeable at all and then you can countercharge with them from behind the chimeras.

Culler wrote:My biggest issue with rough riders is their durability, but have you considered fielding them along with vets in chimeras and have the rough riders run around behind the chimera wall? That way they get cover or aren't seeable at all and then you can countercharge with them from behind the chimeras.

One way to extend their durability and usefullness is to reserve them...in this way they are out of harm's way initially, and when you can make them come in at a point where you feel they are needed...

On your comment, that is how they are supposed to be used, since they are fast enough to keep up behind the line of av12 vehicles (not just with mechvets specifically, but with any hybrid guard army), then sneak through between the vehicles and assault their desired target...

Right, if you leave them in reserve and take 3 groups of 10, and give your opponent more pressing things to shoot at (like, say, 3 power blobs), then they have plenty of durability. Plus, a single rider squad costs as much as a vet squad, and you wouldn't expect 300 points of veterans to have all that much durability (unless you put them in vendettas, in which case it's 720 points, so there's no real comparison).

TheBloodGod wrote:That list doesn't look dangerous. I'd hit it with ordinance and lasgun spam when it gets in range. Even basic lasguns tear apart rough riders.

If you're shooting the riders, then you're NOT shooting something else, which is also dangerous (like priestly power blobs).

As for rough riders not looking dangerous, when you do the math, you can clearly see that they are.

TheBloodGod wrote:If they assault my chimera and destroy it, they could get FRFSRF'd with 25-ish shots from that squad (crushing them completely.)

Then destroy the chimera first with something else. Like all guard units, they work best when supported by other units.

That, or against mech lists proper, it's not going to be hard to multi-assault a couple of transports.

TheBloodGod wrote:If they assault my chimera and destroy it, they could get FRFSRF'd with 25-ish shots from that squad (crushing them completely.)

Once they do their points in damage, what does it matter if they get lasgunned or heavy flamered?

TheBloodGod wrote:Since all your firepower is outputting absolutely nothing on turn 1, nothing significant on turn 2 probably, maybe a little on turn 3, it looks like giving the enemy free shooting domination.

So?

Lots of successful armies hand their opponents shooting domination. If you needed to shoot in order to win, then nobody would play BA or khorne themed armies (indeed, I never would have won a game yet).

TheBloodGod wrote: The CCS on foot with only 4 guys is likely a free-kill. It's not even excessively powerful in melee.

Only if you offer it as a free kill to your opponent.

And they're not excessively powerful, but they can be made reasonably powerful for their points.

TheBloodGod wrote:What if he shoots 2 units down? the 1 unit will assault once then lose all killing power entirely

?

How does killing any one unit reduce the killing power of any other unit?

TheBloodGod wrote:He sends one unit up, it guns rough riders or a blob a ton,

... then you're playing with riders wrong.

TheBloodGod wrote:you assault and kill the small fodder unit (you're now bunched up.)

... then you're playing with riders wrong.

TheBloodGod wrote:He drives some chimeras up and hits your bunched-up-guys with 2 heavy flamers, boom, expensive assault unit or blob destroyed.

See, the problem here is that you don't know how to run an assault army. This does not make them bad in and of themselves, it just means you don't know how to play them.

Played poorly, infantry assault armies can suck. So does any army type.

Ailaros wrote: Right, if you leave them in reserve and take 3 groups of 10, and give your opponent more pressing things to shoot at (like, say, 3 power blobs), then they have plenty of durability. Plus, a single rider squad costs as much as a vet squad, and you wouldn't expect 300 points of veterans to have all that much durability (unless you put them in vendettas, in which case it's 720 points, so there's no real comparison).

You could give them Chimeras for 165 points and they'd be just about as durable. and if RR are in reserve being safe, then they're not on the board being dangerous either.

I don't see how 3 squads of RR would be the best use of ALL the IGs FA slots? 1, maybe 2. but not 3. and of all my games i've never had the Vendetta be as craptastic as some would make it seem. Maybe they're more affraid of the other, in their face, elements of my army?

Ailaros wrote:If you're shooting the riders, then you're NOT shooting something else, which is also dangerous (like priestly power blobs).

you make it seem like that i only have 2-3 things to shoot with?

alarmingrick wrote: if RR are in reserve being safe, then they're not on the board being dangerous either.

True, but these guys have a 24" threat range straight out of reserve - that's half the board. If you've been able to browbeat your opponent out of that range, then you just hit them the second turn their in. They probably won't be drawing a lot of firepower if your opponent is more focused on whatever browbeat them into the corner.

alarmingrick wrote:I don't see how 3 squads of RR would be the best use of ALL the IGs FA slots? 1, maybe 2. but not 3. and of all my games i've never had the Vendetta be as craptastic as some would make it seem. Maybe they're more affraid of the other, in their face, elements of my army?

Well, yeah, if you like vendettas then obviously rough riders aren't for you (neither are hellhounds, of course).

alarmingrick wrote:you make it seem like that i only have 2-3 things to shoot with?

It actually works both ways, like a see-saw. If you're shooting the riders, you're not shooting the blobs, and if you're shooting the blobs, you're not shooting the riders.

Opponents will always have a limited amount of anti light infantry power at any given time, and overwhelming this capacity obviously gives you advantages. It's the same thing with mechanized+armored lists, where there's simply too many vehicles to shoot at. Saying that they're either shooting at the tanks or shooting at the transports (or both poorly), is simply a recognition of the limitations of any army list, not implying that they have no killing power.

Ailaros wrote:

alarmingrick wrote: if RR are in reserve being safe, then they're not on the board being dangerous either.

True, but these guys have a 24" threat range straight out of reserve - that's half the board. If you've been able to browbeat your opponent out of that range, then you just hit them the second turn their in. They probably won't be drawing a lot of firepower if your opponent is more focused on whatever browbeat them into the corner.

alarmingrick wrote:I don't see how 3 squads of RR would be the best use of ALL the IGs FA slots? 1, maybe 2. but not 3. and of all my games i've never had the Vendetta be as craptastic as some would make it seem. Maybe they're more affraid of the other, in their face, elements of my army?

Well, yeah, if you like vendettas then obviously rough riders aren't for you (neither are hellhounds, of course).

alarmingrick wrote:you make it seem like that i only have 2-3 things to shoot with?

It actually works both ways, like a see-saw. If you're shooting the riders, you're not shooting the blobs, and if you're shooting the blobs, you're not shooting the riders.

Opponents will always have a limited amount of anti light infantry power at any given time, and overwhelming this capacity obviously gives you advantages. It's the same thing with mechanized+armored lists, where there's simply too many vehicles to shoot at. Saying that they're either shooting at the tanks or shooting at the transports (or both poorly), is simply a recognition of the limitations of any army list, not implying that they have no killing power.

What i'm trying to say to you is i have enough options to shoot at both. i'm not going to waste a whole turn shooting at RR, while letting ______________ (whatever else?) go untouched.

If I fought that list I'd probably bring a weighty novel to the game so I've got something to do in my opponent's movement phase. Seriously, combined PIS are good, but are they worth basing an entire army around with no armoured support? Nah. You may command board position but you have two options when it comes to movement: spread out to avoid blasts and walk through every single terrain piece on the board or; clump up to get where you need to go quicker, but take massive damage from blast weapons in the process. Either option really isn't good for you.

Killing 4 RR and forcing a Ld check is not very hard at all, nor is isolating and killing those smaller PCS/CCS units. Without your 'Move, move, move' you'll be moving even slower, and Emperor protect you when you finally *do* get the charge and then are massively clumped up for any number of flamers/blasts to whack you.

Or you could face a Green Tide who would take one look at this list, laugh, and then proceed to eat all your infantry for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Not impressed with the list TBH. Far, far too many squishies and not enough long range lethality to do anything in the first and second turns of the game.

L. Wrex

alarmingrick wrote:What i'm trying to say to you is i have enough options to shoot at both. i'm not going to waste a whole turn shooting at RR, while letting ______________ (whatever else?) go untouched.

Right,

Ailaros wrote:(or both poorly)

Resources are finite.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:If I fought that list I'd probably bring a weighty novel to the game so I've got something to do in my opponent's movement phase.

Lol, I've definitely given my opponents smoke breaks. Usually they can make it through my huge deployment and first turn, but once Al'Rahem shows up with another 30 guardsmen, they usually crack.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Seriously, combined PIS are good, but are they worth basing an entire army around with no armoured support? Nah. You may command board position but you have two options when it comes to movement: spread out to avoid blasts and walk through every single terrain piece on the board or; clump up to get where you need to go quicker, but take massive damage from blast weapons in the process. Either option really isn't good for you.

You know, in all the games I've played, I've never had that problem. I choose the "spread out" option (and by spread out, I mean 2" with every model), and I've really never had problems with terrain. Perhaps it's because when we're in the terrain placing part I have some degree of control with what my troops are going to have to move through.

Not to say I've never been slowed by terrain, but it hasn't been this dire problem as presented.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Killing 4 RR and forcing a Ld check is not very hard at all, nor is isolating and killing those smaller PCS/CCS units.

I agree that if you think that 10-man squads (or smaller) are fragile, then don't take riders. Of course, if you believe this, then you're probably a mech player, and those FA slots are going to be a lot more useful as vendettas and hellhounds.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote: Emperor protect you when you finally *do* get the charge and then are massively clumped up for any number of flamers/blasts to whack you.

But once you've taken out a demon prince or a 5-man termie squad, what more do they NEED to do?

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Or you could face a Green Tide who would take one look at this list, laugh, and then proceed to eat all your infantry for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Not so. In the linked game I actually really would have liked to have some rough riders.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Not impressed with the list TBH. Far, far too many squishies and not enough long range lethality to do anything in the first and second turns of the game.

That's the thing, you don't NEED to do anything in the first or second turn. Marine bike armies or blood angels or demons or mechdar or a whole host of armies can be successfully played without relying on a massive alpha strike turn 1.

That the guard has the option for massive turn 1 alpha strike does not mean it's required in order to play a successful guard army.

Ailaros wrote:Resources are finite.

and T3 troops (blobs, CCS/PCS, RR...) aren't indestructable. 5 Chimeras(mol) dumping 15 ML shots and 15 HB shots will put a serious dent in a RR squad. My hellhounds(shouldn't assume i don't use them A man) will seriously
put a dent in a RR squad. those are both just 1 piece of a big ball of guns i'm going to bring. and i know not everything i bring won't always hit or wound. but i also know you aren't always going to make your saves either.

What about the Creed/outflank option? Do you all think that's worthwhile? Or screening them with Devildogs?

Valhallan42nd wrote:What about the Creed/outflank option? Do you all think that's worthwhile? Or screening them with Devildogs?

i haven't been able to pull the trigger on Creed yet. he's just so damned pricey!

i'd actually screen them with regular Chimeras. i screen my DD/HH with a Chimera or 2 as well.

Valhallan42nd wrote:What about the Creed/outflank option? Do you all think that's worthwhile? Or screening them with Devildogs?

Won't work with creed...he only confers that ability to infantry or vehicles, not cavalry....

damn shame really, that alone would be worth it for me to get creed.....