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Here's my 2000 point marine alphastrike(ish) list. Against gunlines I assault turn 1 if I go first and attempt to do so much damage he can't recover. The army can also go quite defensive if required with outflamkers and still retain good mobility:

HQ

Pedro Kantor - 175

Lysander - 200

ELITE

Assault Terminators - 5 x TH/SS - 200

10 Sternguard - 6 x Combi-melta, 2 x Heavy flamer, 1 x Lightening Claw, Drop Pod - 350

6 Sternguard - 4 x Combi-plasma, 2 x Lascannon, Rhino - 220

TROOPS

5 Scouts - Powerfist, Combat blades, Combi-flamer, Melta-bombs - 115

5 Scouts - Powerfist, Combat blades, Combi-flamer, Melta-bombs - 115

FAST ATTACK

Land Speeder Storm - Heavy Flamer - 60

Land Speeder Storm - Heavy Flamer - 60

HEAVY SUPORT

Predator - Las-sponsons - 120

Predator - Las-sponsons - 120

Landraider Crusader - Multimelta - 265

LSS's assault turn 1 support by Pedro in the DP with the 10 man sternguard squad (meaning the scouts get 4 attacks each). I have 6 combi-meltas and 6 Lascannons to take down transports in turn 1, then 4 Heavy flamers the 2 combi-flamers and the Scouts to take out infantry, not to mention the sternguard ammo and Pedro. If it is tank heavy I'm up against the Scouts will go after tanks, auto-hitting with 4 PF attacks and 4 Krak grenades . With Lysander and the Hammernators following up with a turn 2 charge.

If I don't go first or am up against ninja lists the Scouts can outflank and still have a 21" charge range from each table edge. The 6 man sternguard squad's Rhino can be used by the DP sternguard squad to get around and Pedro jumps in with the Hammernators to gives them 4 attacks each on the charge and 5 from Lysander. I still have 6 lascannons, the meltas and even the plasmas to deal with Mechdar or ninja mech. I'd expect mechdar would cause me the most problems and draws a plenty in C&C and Seize Ground with low objective numbers, I'd have the edge in annihilation them in Seize ground with 5 objectives. What do you thinnk?


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No takers?

A couple of quick notes. I don't think both named characters are necessary. I would drop Lysander. If you are attempting to use an Alpha strike type strategy I wouldn't take Preds. I would suggest Dev squads w/ ML or even TFC instead. TFC are glass hammers but if you are going to be pinning your opponent in his deployment zone and giving him that target rich environment then the TFC have a much better chance of surviving. I talk a bit about this topic on the blog in my signature check it out if you like, you may find it useful.

A couple of quick notes. I don't think both named characters are necessary. I would drop Lysander.

He's my beat stick and method of dealing with Thunderwolves. I need him to turn the Hammernators into a proper deathstar, it really increases their threat level. I could go with Cassius for re-rolls to hit (in my fluffy list I tend to use Calgar)

If you are attempting to use an Alpha strike type strategy I wouldn't take Preds. I would suggest Dev squads w/ ML or even TFC instead. TFC are glass hammers but if you are going to be pinning your opponent in his deployment zone and giving him that target rich environment then the TFC have a much better chance of surviving.

Preds are there to open transports and they'll do it cheaper and better than Devastators. Whilst the TFC adds nothing to this list as I've loads of anti-infantry in the enemies face turn 1 anyway. The last thing I want is lots of blast markers flying around hurting my brittle Scouts before they can do damage.

Also the list has to have a plan B hence the Preds, the deathstar and the spare rhino otherwise I can get screwed by ninja lists or if I don't go first...

Flingit. why don't you take Pedro and Vulkan if you want your terminators to be a "death star". 10 points less and FAR more benefits to your army than a Str 10 thunder hammer.


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Benefits of Vulkan to your list:

your Hammernators now reroll to hit.

your combi-meltas & heavy flamers in your sternguard unit are twin-linked.

your scouts' combi-flamers are twin-linked so they can now take out more infantry with more certainty.

your landspeeder storm heavy flamers become twin-linked, meaning more infantry dead.

your crusader's multi-melta becomes twin-linked.


for 10 points less you make your army SO MUCH BETTER

I don't see the point of either Sternguard squad, they're trying to do too many jobs at once. And I'm not a big fan of Lascannons in Sternguard squads, especially when you're buying combi-weapons aswell.

And I second the vote for Vulkan. But also try and deter this, as I dislike the idea of Chapter Masters from different chapters fighting together. But ohwell. =D

Oshova

Benefits of Vulkan to your list:

your Hammernators now reroll to hit.

your combi-meltas & heavy flamers in your sternguard unit are twin-linked.

your scouts' combi-flamers are twin-linked so they can now take out more infantry with more certainty.

your landspeeder storm heavy flamers become twin-linked, meaning more infantry dead.

your crusader's multi-melta becomes twin-linked.


for 10 points less you make your army SO MUCH BETTER

It would also make me auto-lose 2 out of 3 games, how is that better? Vulkan would destroy this list.

I don't see the point of either Sternguard squad, they're trying to do too many jobs at once. And I'm not a big fan of Lascannons in Sternguard squads, especially when you're buying combi-weapons aswell.

The lascannon squad is for objective camping, tank hunting and MC killing. All their weapons help with this. Admittedly in my normal fluffy list with Calgar they are 5 man with no combis which makes them cheaper than a devastator squad with 2 lascannons. Dropping Calgar down to Lysander left me with some spare points, hence the move to 6 man and the combis. But perhaps they could be better spent on a Landspeeder?

The other sternguard squad supports the scouts. They are great anti-infantry with the Heavy flamers and special ammo. But they are also a great way of getting rid of the landraiders that the scouts can't deal with. Yeah I could dump the lightening claw but I like the way I modelled it and it gives me a little support punch in CC as the unit is dropping right into the opponents mouth turn 1.

how does it make ou auto-lose???

I would then have 10 CC scouts (that suicide as my alphastrike) as my only scoring units, meanig I Couldn't win objective games...

pedro kantor makes your sternguard scoring.

I was saying drop lysander in favour of vulkan!

pedro kantor makes your sternguard scoring.

I was saying drop lysander in favour of vulkan!

Then I wouldn't get the benefits you're saying I'd get (twin-linked and master crafted). I'd just be taking Vulkan for his combat prowess and as I said Lysander is more of a beat stick and is my answer to Thunder wolves.

So which is it auto-lose in 2 in 3 games or give up the TL? I really see no point in taking Vulkan if you're not going to use his chapter tactics.

Sorry i'm not understanding what you lose if you take Vulkan.

You choose which chapter tactics applies if you have 2 characters.

You take pedro kantor and vulkan he'stan.

not seeing the problem here...


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ok. if Vulkan is out then what you need is something that will let you do Str 10 in CC.

Lysander is not the guy you want.

Might I present:

Librarian in Terminator Armour w/ Storm Shield
Epistolary
Null Zone & Might of Ancients.

Does everything you want Lysander to do and more.

Sorry i'm not understanding what you lose if you take Vulkan.

You choose which chapter tactics applies if you have 2 characters.

You take pedro kantor and vulkan he'stan.

not seeing the problem here...

What is the point of taking Vulkan and not having his chapter tactics? If I take his chapter tactics I auto-lose 2 in 3 games. If I don't I just have a 190 point Character that doesn't really add anything to the army and can be instant deathed, rather than someone that can win 1 on 1 duels with basically anything, can't be instant killed, and causes ID in thunderwolves (and other T5 models) and can smash apart Landraiders and Monoliths and help deal with Ironclads and soul grinders...


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ok. if Vulkan is out then what you need is something that will let you do Str 10 in CC.

Lysander is not the guy you want.

Might I present:

Librarian in Terminator Armour w/ Storm Shield
Epistolary
Null Zone & Might of Ancients.

Does everything you want Lysander to do and more.

Requires a passed psychic test to work and against TW (my main concern) it can be dispelled on a 4+, he can be instagibbed and can't go toe to toe with other deathstars.

Why all the hate for Lysander? He's pretty awesome.

he's 200 points and has the weirdest rules ever. A mastercrafted thunder hammer but his main rule is Bolter Drill....you buy a guy in terminator armour set up for assault and he lets you reroll to hit in SHOOTING? mad. not just wrong. mad.

how often are you going to lose a psychic test with a LD10 librarian??

And also you're forgetting Null Zone. yes they may pass a 4+ inv save. but then they have to reroll....


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Also the only thing that can dispel on a 4+ is a Belt of Russ. of which only a Wolf Lord can take.

Thunderwolf Cavalry have a 3+ armour save. No invulnerable.

So even if you have 2 Wolf Lords in a thunderwolf cavalry unit the librarian can take them on AND force them to reroll their Inv Saves. Everything else is dead cause power weapons ignore normal armour

Corennus wrote:Sorry i'm not understanding what you lose if you take Vulkan.

You choose which chapter tactics applies if you have 2 characters.

You take pedro kantor and vulkan he'stan.

not seeing the problem here...


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ok. if Vulkan is out then what you need is something that will let you do Str 10 in CC.

Lysander is not the guy you want.

Might I present:

Librarian in Terminator Armour w/ Storm Shield
Epistolary
Null Zone & Might of Ancients.

Does everything you want Lysander to do and more.

Can I have some of that you are smoking? Or nevermind, I wouldnt want to get that fubar.
Seriously this is horrible "advice", do you even know how chapter tactics work?

As for the list. I would probably stick 2 Combi-flamers in the 10man Sternguard squad by droping the MBs on the Scouts, usually the PF is better than the MB and when its not you have 5ish combimeltas that can deal with it.

FlingitNow wrote:

HQ

Pedro Kantor - 175

Lysander - 200

ELITE

Assault Terminators - 5 x TH/SS - 200

10 Sternguard - 6 x Combi-melta, 2 x Heavy flamer, 1 x Lightening Claw, Drop Pod - 350

6 Sternguard - 4 x Combi-plasma, 2 x Lascannon, Rhino - 220

TROOPS

5 Scouts - Powerfist, Combat blades, Combi-flamer, Melta-bombs - 115

5 Scouts - Powerfist, Combat blades, Combi-flamer, Melta-bombs - 115

FAST ATTACK

Land Speeder Storm - Heavy Flamer - 60

Land Speeder Storm - Heavy Flamer - 60

HEAVY SUPORT

Predator - Las-sponsons - 120

Predator - Las-sponsons - 120

Landraider Crusader - Multimelta - 265

You don't need both HQ choices. Yuo need Pedro mostly for scoring Sternguard, which is cool. Though Lysander is un-needed as you get stubborn from Pedro anyway and you're using him with Hammernators which are a deathstar unit alone, but Lysanders other benefit is bolter drill - you're not using it. You're just paying 200 points for a Hammernator with S10 weapon and eternal warrior, waste of points. Get a Librarian with nullzone instead or get a Chaplain re-roll to hit.

A single Land Raider will get nuked easily in 2k. My Imperial Fists would just sent two cheaper multi melta Speeders at it and pop it, your Hammernators are on foot. You need more target saturation in large units or else all guns will be pointing at the Raider and lets face it, it's not hard to stop a Land Raider these days with the right tools.

Sternguard are messed up. You've got a single Drop Pod which will come down unsupported leaving it just in the middle of no where. You have a single lightning claw, Sternguard are shooting not assault. Sure they can do it, but you're paying a extra 9 points per Sternguard over normal Space Marines to get special ammo - why waste it by going into combat? Why waste it with heavy flamers putting yourself in charge range and not being able to assault after firing those bolters. You want flamers go combi and don't waste the special ammo. Sternguard are not an assault unit, they are a shooting unit.

Your other Sternguard I get what you're trying to do. But look at your weapon ranges, 48" and 24" and then a Rhino too. The Rhino is ok for transport but being the only weak transport means it's going to get hammered and those Sternguard inside are seriously messed up. You should use Scouts to keep home objectives and then fan the Sternguard out and claim objectives as you go, not be a static bunker with a heavy weapon wasting the points you've paid for special ammo.

5 Scouts will die in combat. Even if alpha strike. You don't need melta bombs with a power fist either, what do you want a single melta bomb attack or 3 pwoer fist attacks on the charge? Both are the same strength and you hit vehicles on the rear armour anyway. Scouts are not alpha strike units, especially with the wargear you've given them. You should re-think their role in your army.

Heavy support is fine.

What happened to the days when you used to write good lists eh?

The Sternguard are not unsuported, they have 2 LSS with Scouts supporting them. With Pedro both the scouts and the Sternguard put out 4 attack each on the charge. And since the Sternguard will be shooting assault weapons on the turn they pod in getting stuck in CC wastly beats getting shot to pieces

They sort of are. You'll be alpha striking whatever with those Scouts which will see them die next turn and then the Sternguard will be standing there. It depends on locations of units if supported or not.

They cannot assault from Drop Pod as it counts as cruising speed. And to assault means not firing bolters, which is the whole point in taking Sternguard!

lol, dont know what I was thinking regarding the assault when they Pod comment . Still, the Scouts will hit with 40 CC attacks of which 8 are str 8 PF attacks.
Imo, the point of taking Sternguard is the Bolters AND the cheap and abundant Combis

Well I get your list and do realize that if you take anything out your screwed so I will say this. If they repel your first attack you are pretty much done but it looks built into the list and there really isn't much you can do to change that. Hope you never go up against a decent tyranid or demon list and your drop pod doesn't scatter far backwards.

As for the list. I would probably stick 2 Combi-flamers in the 10man Sternguard squad by droping the MBs on the Scouts, usually the PF is better than the MB and when its not you have 5ish combimeltas that can deal with it.

Good point well made.

You don't need both HQ choices. Yuo need Pedro mostly for scoring Sternguard, which is cool. Though Lysander is un-needed as you get stubborn from Pedro anyway and you're using him with Hammernators which are a deathstar unit alone, but Lysanders other benefit is bolter drill - you're not using it. You're just paying 200 points for a Hammernator with S10 weapon and eternal warrior, waste of points. Get a Librarian with nullzone instead or get a Chaplain re-roll to hit.

A single Land Raider will get nuked easily in 2k. My Imperial Fists would just sent two cheaper multi melta Speeders at it and pop it, your Hammernators are on foot. You need more target saturation in large units or else all guns will be pointing at the Raider and lets face it, it's not hard to stop a Land Raider these days with the right tools.

Sternguard are messed up. You've got a single Drop Pod which will come down unsupported leaving it just in the middle of no where. You have a single lightning claw, Sternguard are shooting not assault. Sure they can do it, but you're paying a extra 9 points per Sternguard over normal Space Marines to get special ammo - why waste it by going into combat? Why waste it with heavy flamers putting yourself in charge range and not being able to assault after firing those bolters. You want flamers go combi and don't waste the special ammo. Sternguard are not an assault unit, they are a shooting unit.

Your other Sternguard I get what you're trying to do. But look at your weapon ranges, 48" and 24" and then a Rhino too. The Rhino is ok for transport but being the only weak transport means it's going to get hammered and those Sternguard inside are seriously messed up. You should use Scouts to keep home objectives and then fan the Sternguard out and claim objectives as you go, not be a static bunker with a heavy weapon wasting the points you've paid for special ammo.

5 Scouts will die in combat. Even if alpha strike. You don't need melta bombs with a power fist either, what do you want a single melta bomb attack or 3 pwoer fist attacks on the charge? Both are the same strength and you hit vehicles on the rear armour anyway. Scouts are not alpha strike units, especially with the wargear you've given them. You should re-think their role in your army.

Heavy support is fine.

Lysander is the beat stick he ups the effectiveness of the Hammernators and covers me against the things the rest of my list can't deal well with (killer HQs and Thunderwolves), which is why he was selected ahead of a Chaplain or Librarian.

I know the landraider can be easily nuked but if it's moved 12" in the first turn it has probably done it's job (i.e. delivering the hammernators to support the the scouts and pedro).

As tedurer pointed out the drop pod is far from unsupported. The lighteningclaw is the only thing I've spent points on in a CC way. Yes sternguard are 9 points more than normal tacticals but you also get an extra attack from each and more importantly cheap abundant combis. Where I'm dropping them I expect to get assaulted hence the lightening claw, but I'm not tied to it.

The rhino isn't for the other Sternguard it is a spare transport should I decide I don't want to drop the sternguard in (i.e. I don't get first turn or am against a ninja list). But yes I could easily drop the combis on them as already stated.

5 Scouts can kill most things in combat, they hit harder than 5 Striking Scorpions for instance. But I can send both squads after 1 target if ne. I've had 10 wipeout sanguinary Guard with a Preist in toe and both fists survived to do more damage elsewhere. Against units of 20 shoota boyz (meta heavy but seem the standard in many Ork Tournament lists) they should wipe them out on their own after the 2 flamers have hit home, you take 40 Ork boyz out in a turn 1 assault from just 10 scouts and that will cause most Ork lists issues. Likewise 20 gaunts are easy prey for the scouts. Or I can assassinate a serious threat with them (i.e. I've used them to take down Epidemus in a Nurgle list). Against any shooty unit or even Eldar CC units they should win and with the -2 LD should break them and wipe them out or chase them off the board (given that they will be in my opponents deployment zone). Scouts are awesome alphastrike units you should give them a go.

Well I get your list and do realize that if you take anything out your screwed so I will say this. If they repel your first attack you are pretty much done but it looks built into the list and there really isn't much you can do to change that. Hope you never go up against a decent tyranid or demon list and your drop pod doesn't scatter far backwards.

Yeah it truncates the game some what which is always fun. But it does have options to go more defensive and my fluffy version of the list (with Calgar in for Lysander) has done very well against Nids and Daemons. The issue I have with daemons is that some arrive so late I don't always table my opponent, which is annoying.

How does he up the effectiveness of the Hammernators? With or without him they function the same. For 200 points just to be a uber HQ it's too much and also a waste of points. As mentioned you've got his ability thanks to Pedro and you're not putting him with a bolter unit to re-roll to hit.

Provivding your get first turn, you Land Raider would have only moved 32" in total. On a 48" board wiht enemy deploying you're too short away. You'll get turn two assault no doubt. But, against alpha strikes it's just a single target take it out and Hammernators walking - with two it's harder.

Like I said about supported. It depends where your alpha strike Scouts are going and the Drop Pod, so yes, could be unsupported. As mentioned, may have two attacks but they're a shooting unit - shouldn't be in assault.

So what's the Rhino there for? Appears just to be thrown in there. Either way, it's gonna get blown up if anything goes inside it or is a waste of points. Can you explain more the point in this please.

How can 5 Scouts hit harder than Striking Scorpions? On the charge Scorpions get 4 attacks each and are WS4, Scouts have 3 attacks each and WS4. Scorpions are T3 but 3+ armour and Scouts T4 but 4+ armour. Scorpions at least have more attacks. I think you give the Scouts more praise then they deserve TBH. I don't think Scouts would do that much damage to S-Guard or Orks TBH, I think the S-Guard was just bad luck as 2+ with FnP. Scouts aren't really a awesome alpha strike unit, only a single power fist to do the job and whatever they do will get them next turn, plus 5 won't do what you say. I just think you give them too much credit.






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tedurur wrote:lol, dont know what I was thinking regarding the assault when they Pod comment . Still, the Scouts will hit with 40 CC attacks of which 8 are str 8 PF attacks.
Imo, the point of taking Sternguard is the Bolters AND the cheap and abundant Combis

Never mind hey, every makes mistakes. You won't get 40 attack from the Scouts as only units of 5 and that means throwing both at a single target. A single Scout squad with Pedro nearby could have 16 attacks inc 4 power fist attacks. Where did you get 40 from? Am I missing something?

I agree on Sternguard. Assault it not where they belong.

cromwest wrote:Well I get your list and do realize that if you take anything out your screwed so I will say this. If they repel your first attack you are pretty much done but it looks built into the list and there really isn't much you can do to change that. Hope you never go up against a decent tyranid or demon list and your drop pod doesn't scatter far backwards.

I have to agree with this comment. WHen those Scouts attempt to alpha strike and they fail (lets face it just a power fist, should have combi mellta) they will get battered, same with the Sternguard. Then just deal with the single Land Raider and finish off. When armies come in piecemeal waves of attacks it's easy to deal with the threats then and then.

How does he up the effectiveness of the Hammernators? With or without him they function the same. For 200 points just to be a uber HQ it's too much and also a waste of points. As mentioned you've got his ability thanks to Pedro and you're not putting him with a bolter unit to re-roll to hit.

Provivding your get first turn, you Land Raider would have only moved 32" in total. On a 48" board wiht enemy deploying you're too short away. You'll get turn two assault no doubt. But, against alpha strikes it's just a single target take it out and Hammernators walking - with two it's harder.

Like I said about supported. It depends where your alpha strike Scouts are going and the Drop Pod, so yes, could be unsupported. As mentioned, may have two attacks but they're a shooting unit - shouldn't be in assault.

So what's the Rhino there for? Appears just to be thrown in there. Either way, it's gonna get blown up if anything goes inside it or is a waste of points. Can you explain more the point in this please.

How can 5 Scouts hit harder than Striking Scorpions? On the charge Scorpions get 4 attacks each and are WS4, Scouts have 3 attacks each and WS4. Scorpions are T3 but 3+ armour and Scouts T4 but 4+ armour. Scorpions at least have more attacks. I think you give the Scouts more praise then they deserve TBH. I don't think Scouts would do that much damage to S-Guard or Orks TBH, I think the S-Guard was just bad luck as 2+ with FnP. Scouts aren't really a awesome alpha strike unit, only a single power fist to do the job and whatever they do will get them next turn, plus 5 won't do what you say. I just think you give them too much credit.

Granted he doesn't effect how the Hammernators work individually but he increases the effectiveness of the unit with his combat prowess and can ride in the LR, plus he can ID thunderwolves. Turn 2 assault with them is all I need (turn 1 is possible but unlikely). Particularly if my opponent is wasting time taking out the LR with the LSSs and scouts arround.

The scouts and the DP always go together. With terrain and other factors it is pretty easy to ensure the DP comes in routhly where you want it to.

As for the Rhino it is thrown in there. When I doing an Alphastrike the Rhino does and adds nothing. However when I'm not it gives the 10 man SG squad a ride and in that circumstance the DP does nothing expect movement/LoS block.

Scouts also have 4 S4 attacks but their fist is S8 rather than S6, hence why they hit harder, yes lower WS but against anything that you're not easily wiping out Ws3=Ws4 for hitting power (they just don't take a beating quite as well as the scorpions, but they do have the advantage of making the enemy -2 Ld)). They also have a combi-flamer and the bolt pistols and the support of the HF assume 6-7 hits from the flamers and you're looking at 38 S4 (or more) attacks on the charge from each unit. Each throwing out 20 CC attacks.

I don't see how a combi-melta would hugely improve them compared to the flamer. I have enough melta in range to deal with 2 LRs anyway and the scouts should be targetting infantry or battletanks (rear armour 10 by and large sometimes 11) and against those the melta doesn't make any difference. As against infantry 1 shot isn't a huge help. Whilst against the battle tanks they are dead anyway with 4 auto-hitting S8 attacks and 4 auto-hitting S6 attacks...

What's the obssession against T-Wolves? You play against them a lot? Unless you play against them all the time then I wouldn't worry, after all it's only one model in a unit which has this ability and it's costing you 200 points and you're not using the full benefits. It's a waste of points.

The Rhino sounds like a waste of points. IN kill points I'd blow it up for easy points, in normal games I'd ignore it and it will do nothing. Honestly, it's a waste.

Only a single weapon hits harder then, not the Scouts as a whole. So Scorpions are better, faster, better in combat and more attacks. Remember, you only get -2 LD on initiatl drop from the Speeder, you won't always get that so you cannot really include it. You've got to destroy the transport they're in and then assault and win. That's a lot. I think you're presuming too much and not considering other factors i.e dice. Again, presuming the flamers can hit due to model placement. How do you get 38 attacks on the charge? 5 Scouts get 15 attacks on the charge, you cannot include shooting because that's a different phase - you get 15 attacks when charging, not 38, that's a false statement.

Well you're alpha striking right with a power fist at a vehicle, yes? Wouldn't a combi melta be better to pop the tank and then assault with the fist? What melta is that? You have a single Sternguard unit which must fire at the same target - unless they combat squad when landing and then it's combi meltas so once fired that's it. Why you firing melta at infantry for? Against tanks, as mentioned, melta gives you the shot before assault which means you can pop the tank and ASSAULT TOO!! If assault the tank then you're standing there next turn.

What's the obssession against T-Wolves? You play against them a lot? Unless you play against them all the time then I wouldn't worry, after all it's only one model in a unit which has this ability and it's costing you 200 points and you're not using the full benefits. It's a waste of points.

They are the only hammer unit that my deathstar would fear without Lysander. Yes every SW player I play against has TW... I'm getting all his benefits except bolter drill, which while nice is not realy his forte. In fact his biggest downside (stubborn) is negated by thefact I'm already suffering that due to Pedro.

The Rhino sounds like a waste of points. IN kill points I'd blow it up for easy points, in normal games I'd ignore it and it will do nothing. Honestly, it's a waste.

Both true it is still useful to me as a plan B.

Only a single weapon hits harder then, not the Scouts as a whole. So Scorpions are better, faster, better in combat and more attacks. Remember, you only get -2 LD on initiatl drop from the Speeder, you won't always get that so you cannot really include it. You've got to destroy the transport they're in and then assault and win. That's a lot. I think you're presuming too much and not considering other factors i.e dice. Again, presuming the flamers can hit due to model placement. How do you get 38 attacks on the charge? 5 Scouts get 15 attacks on the charge, you cannot include shooting because that's a different phase - you get 15 attacks when charging, not 38, that's a false statement.

Right I was talking about the Scouts hitting power as part of the turn 1 alphastrike. They have 4 attacks each which is the same as the Scorpions. The only difference is initiative and WS. The later is irrelevant against 90% for hitting power likewise the former (though they do both make you more survivable, but this is not a concern for me). I get 20 attacks from the charge not 15. As this is part of my alphastrike I'm looking at damage output and that unit throws out about 38 S4 (or better) attacks (in one form or another) as part of that strike. That will ruin most things they are up against. likewise the -2Ld is part of that, after that I expect my Scouts to die so how many attacks they get later and what Ld modifiers is largely irrelevant to me.

Well you're alpha striking right with a power fist at a vehicle, yes? Wouldn't a combi melta be better to pop the tank and then assault with the fist? What melta is that? You have a single Sternguard unit which must fire at the same target - unless they combat squad when landing and then it's combi meltas so once fired that's it. Why you firing melta at infantry for? Against tanks, as mentioned, melta gives you the shot before assault which means you can pop the tank and ASSAULT TOO!! If assault the tank then you're standing there next turn.

Popping the transports isn't the job of the scouts I have 2 Predators, the Lascannon Sternguard, 6 combi-meltas and the LR (with assault cannon or MM depending on target) to do that. The Scouts should be targetting infatry or battle tanks. Against infantry they will do better with the support of the combi-flamer against battletanks they will destroy them easily without the combi-melta so it is somewhat pointless in either scenario. Come on Mercer you know plenty about synergy.

What this army does is hit the opponent hard in turn 1 and then present my entire force for him to deal with in one go. He'll have the choice of whether to concentrate on the alphastriking elements leaving the deathstar unharmed or he can concentrate on the deathstar allowing the alphastrike elements to hit him again. Either way my entire force is there (excluding the fire base elements) in his face and he has 1 turn to deal with them before game over.

I'm vulnerable to poor first turns (dice gods say fail) and to ninja lists (particularly mechdar that play the avoiding game). I'm ok with that. I basically auto-beat Tau, and numerous IG builds (Valkeryes causing me the biggest issues). The idea with the list is to fight the battle on my terms. To not allow my opponent to make decisions but to force his hand to play it my way. However if his army can eat my army up close I still have the option of going defensive and against those armies I can delay and damage them until I'm ready to counter attack.

FlingitNow wrote:. They have 4 attacks each which is the same as the Scorpions.

You've said that a few times now. Am I forgetting a rule from the Landspeeder storm?

Scouts have 1 base attack. They get +1 for two weapons. They get +1 for charging. Is there another +1 somewhere that I'm overlooking? I don't have my books.

Edit: Oh, and I think your list would be fun as hell to play with. I don't agree with the 2 special characters, but "Play what you enjoy" is my motto.

Pedro who comes down with the sternguard grants a +1A aura.
Mercer, the 40 attacks was for both his scout squads.

What's the obssession against T-Wolves? You play against them a lot? Unless you play against them all the time then I wouldn't worry, after all it's only one model in a unit which has this ability and it's costing you 200 points and you're not using the full benefits. It's a waste of points.

They are the only hammer unit that my deathstar would fear without Lysander. Yes every SW player I play against has TW... I'm getting all his benefits except bolter drill, which while nice is not realy his forte. In fact his biggest downside (stubborn) is negated by thefact I'm already suffering that due to Pedro.

Ok, so you're agreeing you're not getting the benefits out of him and paying 200 points for a S10 t-hammer. If you want do that just because of a certain army then sound, but it's still a waste of 200 points.

The Rhino sounds like a waste of points. IN kill points I'd blow it up for easy points, in normal games I'd ignore it and it will do nothing. Honestly, it's a waste.

Both true it is still useful to me as a plan B.

Plan B isn't that good either, no target saturation is the problem.

Only a single weapon hits harder then, not the Scouts as a whole. So Scorpions are better, faster, better in combat and more attacks. Remember, you only get -2 LD on initiatl drop from the Speeder, you won't always get that so you cannot really include it. You've got to destroy the transport they're in and then assault and win. That's a lot. I think you're presuming too much and not considering other factors i.e dice. Again, presuming the flamers can hit due to model placement. How do you get 38 attacks on the charge? 5 Scouts get 15 attacks on the charge, you cannot include shooting because that's a different phase - you get 15 attacks when charging, not 38, that's a false statement.

Right I was talking about the Scouts hitting power as part of the turn 1 alphastrike. They have 4 attacks each which is the same as the Scorpions. The only difference is initiative and WS. The later is irrelevant against 90% for hitting power likewise the former (though they do both make you more survivable, but this is not a concern for me). I get 20 attacks from the charge not 15. As this is part of my alphastrike I'm looking at damage output and that unit throws out about 38 S4 (or better) attacks (in one form or another) as part of that strike. That will ruin most things they are up against. likewise the -2Ld is part of that, after that I expect my Scouts to die so how many attacks they get later and what Ld modifiers is largely irrelevant to me.

When you pop a target you've got to make sure Pedro is within 6" and you're throwing two units at one target, not good. What you want is combi meltas to pop a vehicle then use the Storms to use the flamers on the transports and then charge in - much better and doesn't have your Scouts standing there waiting to feel the hurt next turn.

Well you're alpha striking right with a power fist at a vehicle, yes? Wouldn't a combi melta be better to pop the tank and then assault with the fist? What melta is that? You have a single Sternguard unit which must fire at the same target - unless they combat squad when landing and then it's combi meltas so once fired that's it. Why you firing melta at infantry for? Against tanks, as mentioned, melta gives you the shot before assault which means you can pop the tank and ASSAULT TOO!! If assault the tank then you're standing there next turn.

Popping the transports isn't the job of the scouts I have 2 Predators, the Lascannon Sternguard, 6 combi-meltas and the LR (with assault cannon or MM depending on target) to do that. The Scouts should be targetting infatry or battle tanks. Against infantry they will do better with the support of the combi-flamer against battletanks they will destroy them easily without the combi-melta so it is somewhat pointless in either scenario. Come on Mercer you know plenty about synergy.

You didn't actually tell me what targets you're going for So a combi melta is still useful against a tank anyway, I don't know how you can say combi melta is useless - flamer and power fist for assaulting vehicles isn't synergy, I know about synergy, do you?

What this army does is hit the opponent hard in turn 1 and then present my entire force for him to deal with in one go. He'll have the choice of whether to concentrate on the alphastriking elements leaving the deathstar unharmed or he can concentrate on the deathstar allowing the alphastrike elements to hit him again. Either way my entire force is there (excluding the fire base elements) in his face and he has 1 turn to deal with them before game over.

I can't see how 2 Scout units attacknig the same target or with power fists for tanks hits hard. You should take combi meltas for synergy, as you said going after tanks. Ting is you won't have your entire force to deal with in one go because several units in the opponents face the others are hanging back. Kill those Scouts and Sternguard and deal with the rest, it's not hard. Your force definately isn't there in any onces face at all, only three units will be - 2 x Scouts and single Drop Pod.

I'm vulnerable to poor first turns (dice gods say fail) and to ninja lists (particularly mechdar that play the avoiding game). I'm ok with that. I basically auto-beat Tau, and numerous IG builds (Valkeryes causing me the biggest issues). The idea with the list is to fight the battle on my terms. To not allow my opponent to make decisions but to force his hand to play it my way. However if his army can eat my army up close I still have the option of going defensive and against those armies I can delay and damage them until I'm ready to counter attack.

I don't play Tau or know a lot of them so take my words as a pitch of salt, but how can you auto beat Tau? First turnb Scouts come and bust something and Sternguard bomb down, next turn Tau has a lot of fire power and only 3 units (maybe 5) to deal with and small ones at that (depends if you combat squad too) just blast until gone away or possibly force leadership and hope they fail, hope lol.

Honestly, you're splitting your force in half and sending minimum units to the opponent, these will be dealt with quickly because there while the rest of your stuff lumbers behind. See you're keeping your force altogether to benefit from Pedros ability (cool) but you're either using Scouts to pop tanks (which need combi melta not flamer!) or infantry, providing long range support does the job, but you don't have enough fire power in quantity to do that. Then on the opponents turn you're clustered around him and probably taken out or mauled some targets, but now the opponent has to deal with 2 x 5 Scouts, 2 x 5 Sternguard + Pedro and 2 x Speeder Storms none of those are hard to take out, which is my point. Those will be taken down pretty quickly then the rest of your force can be taken out, any opponent would send something to the Land Raider and then deal with what's on the door step, this would leave then the rest of your force comprising of a single Sternguard, Rhino and 2 armour units along with Terminators - you could lose half your army turn one because splitting it up and having in small units - bad times. Though, if that works for you then great.

This is something what you probably want do try instead:

HQ

Pedro Kantor

Lysander

Elite

10 x Sternguard w/ Drop Pod - x amount combi weapons - Pod w/ locator beacon

10 x Sternguard w/ Drop Pod - x amount combi weapons - Pod w/ locator beacon

5 x Tactical Terminators w/ cyclone missile launcher

Troops

5 x Scouts - ccw & bolt pistol - sgt w/ combi melta & power fist

5 x Scouts - ccw & bolt pistol - sgt w/ combi melta & power fist

5 x Scouts - ccw & bolt pistol - sgt w/ combi melta & power fist

Fast Attack

Land Speeder Storm - heavy flamer

Land Speeder Storm - heavy flamer

Land Speeder Storm - heavy flamer

Heavy Support

Predator - autocannon & lascannon sponsons

Predator - autocannon & lascannon sponsons

Predator - autocannon & lascannon sponsons

Now with this list you haven't got the single Land Raider and no need to worry about all the guns pointing at it.

You've got more Scouts to alpha strike now with the right weaponry, keep the combi melta as you don't have to fire it and use it when needed - Scouts only tie things up, you need to be selective what they assault.

Lysander deep strikes in using locator beaons and has Tactical Terminators which use his rule better, ok they're not as good as Assault Terminators but still got S8 weapons for c.c and no need for the Land Raider so much, the Terminators now will be within Pedro and gain +1 attack too - 4 power fist attacks each on the charge, get in!

Sternguard you can combat squad and use to claim objectives, obviously depends what objective game you're playing.

Also, more Predators and more fire power!!

Only problem is lack of melta (which you had) could switch Storms to multi meltas but BS3 but you could pop a tank with it and then use the Scouts to blast with pistols then assault. Definately need more melta, remember when building a list the 3M's . Only thing I don't like is the second Drop Pod and Terminators in reserve, but you've got same amount alpha striking, actually more and then got better delivery and use of the other Sternguard and better use of Lysander and delivery of the Terminators.

tedurur wrote:Pedro who comes down with the sternguard grants a +1A aura.
Mercer, the 40 attacks was for both his scout squads.

Thats my point though mate. To get that many attacks on a single unit (like Flingit is saying) then both Scouts need to attack the same unit, which isn't good as you want to attack as many units as possible.

Ok, so you're agreeing you're not getting the benefits out of him and paying 200 points for a S10 t-hammer. If you want do that just because of a certain army then sound, but it's still a waste of 200 points.

But I am getting the benefits of him. Bolter drill is OK not more than that. Twin-linked bolters are still only bolters... His main benefits are his survivability and hitting power and the way he can go toe to toe with any other character.

Plan B isn't that good either, no target saturation is the problem.

True but still better than them footslogging or dropping solo. Remember plan B is only likely to be used against armies with minimal fire power...

You didn't actually tell me what targets you're going for So a combi melta is still useful against a tank anyway, I don't know how you can say combi melta is useless - flamer and power fist for assaulting vehicles isn't synergy, I know about synergy, do you?

Combi-flamer and 4 attacks each and PF is great for taking on infantry though. With 4 auto hitting fist attacks vehicles are not an issue. I still don't see the benefit from the alpha strike to using the combi-melta.

When you pop a target you've got to make sure Pedro is within 6" and you're throwing two units at one target, not good. What you want is combi meltas to pop a vehicle then use the Storms to use the flamers on the transports and then charge in - much better and doesn't have your Scouts standing there waiting to feel the hurt next turn.

I can't see how 2 Scout units attacknig the same target or with power fists for tanks hits hard. You should take combi meltas for synergy, as you said going after tanks. Ting is you won't have your entire force to deal with in one go because several units in the opponents face the others are hanging back. Kill those Scouts and Sternguard and deal with the rest, it's not hard. Your force definately isn't there in any onces face at all, only three units will be - 2 x Scouts and single Drop Pod.

To get that many attacks on a single unit (like Flingit is saying) then both Scouts need to attack the same unit, which isn't good as you want to attack as many units as possible.

Pedro's bubble is 12", so no I don't have to be that close and no the Scouts don't have to be going after the same target they could be going after targets potenitally 24" apart (though logistcally it tends to be targets no more than about 15" apart, often a lot closer than that)...

I don't play Tau or know a lot of them so take my words as a pitch of salt, but how can you auto beat Tau? First turnb Scouts come and bust something and Sternguard bomb down, next turn Tau has a lot of fire power and only 3 units (maybe 5) to deal with and small ones at that (depends if you combat squad too) just blast until gone away or possibly force leadership and hope they fail, hope lol.

Against Tau the Heavy flamers will slaughter the FWs on their own the Scouts can hit tanks or battle suits unaided and the Preds can support. The Sternguard can either help pop tanks or AP3 bolter battlesuits to death. I can reasonably expect to take 7-8 units out of commission against Tau. Tau rely on not getting into assault they now have 6 Alphastriking units (7 if you count the DP, I don't) to deal with and a Landraider full of Terminators in 1 turn with probably somehwere between 35%-50% of their army...

Honestly, you're splitting your force in half and sending minimum units to the opponent, these will be dealt with quickly because there while the rest of your stuff lumbers behind. See you're keeping your force altogether to benefit from Pedros ability (cool) but you're either using Scouts to pop tanks (which need combi melta not flamer!) or infantry, providing long range support does the job, but you don't have enough fire power in quantity to do that. Then on the opponents turn you're clustered around him and probably taken out or mauled some targets, but now the opponent has to deal with 2 x 5 Scouts, 2 x 5 Sternguard + Pedro and 2 x Speeder Storms none of those are hard to take out, which is my point. Those will be taken down pretty quickly then the rest of your force can be taken out, any opponent would send something to the Land Raider and then deal with what's on the door step, this would leave then the rest of your force comprising of a single Sternguard, Rhino and 2 armour units along with Terminators - you could lose half your army turn one because splitting it up and having in small units - bad times. Though, if that works for you then great.

This seems to highlight your misconception with the army. Your sayiong my army lumbers behind the alphastrike it doesn't. Yes he can deal with the Alphastrikers in his turn. That is 6 units to deal with that would take pretty much his entire force (or what's left of it) which is great for me because that means the LR and Hammernators are ignored for a turn and that is the only turn he has to deal with them before they hit home. He has 1 turn to deal with the scouts (who could well be in cover) 2 LSSs 2 Squads of Sternguard and a Chapter Master, and he has to also stop a Land raider, 5 Hammernators and Lysander (the toughest IC in the codex).

I do also like your list, but you lack a deathstar which the list needs to counter act how much of a glass cannon it is. Your Scouts won't be able to take on hordes and will hit no harder against vehicles than mine. You've got no unit to hold any objectives in/near your own deployment zone.

You won't be getting 4 attacks from your Terminators because no way Pedro will be alive by turn 3 (at the earliest in my list he only has to survive to turn 2), if your guys don't turn up turn 2 (which will happen 50% of the time) you've now split your force much more than I have. Now that is a list that really comes in peicemeal.

Ask yourself which is hrader to deal with in 1 turn:

3 x 5 Scouts
3 x LSS
2 x 10 Sternguard
Pedro

or

2 x 5 Scouts
2 x LSS
2 x 5 Sternguard
Pedro
Land Raider Crusader
Lysander.

Or 5 Scouts, 1 LSS and 10 Sternguard (approx 450 points) or a Landraider, Lysander and 5 Hammernators (approx 660 points)...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus you've only got 1 DP so that comparison gets far worse for you as the 2nd group of 10 SG won't be there. Wow youur list really is peicemeal.

So that is which is harder to kill 1 Lss and 5 Scouts or 1 Landriader, Lysander and 5 Hammernators...

That my point about Lysnader! You're paying 200 points for a S.M Captain with S10 thunder hammer and two abilities you're not using. So you're paiyng 200 points for a Captain with S10 t-hammer, that's a total waste of points. You're only using him to I.D T-Wolves. You are not getting benefits from Lysander! Lysanders benefits are stubborn - you've got this thanks to Pedro! You get bolter drill and he's not attached to any bolters? That's the benefits of Lysander. His thunderhammer is a feature, not benefit, ok maybe benefits killing the T-Wolves which you've got a unhealthy obssession with, but that's minor and only against a particular army 200 points just for that is alot, he's hardly a beat stick as same profile as a Captain...

You don't understand why a combi melta for? You want to charge tanks with a power fist, yes? You blast the tank first and maybe pop it with the melta and THEN ASSAULT the troops inside! Hellfire, this is tough :( Why take a combi flamer if you're going to just assault a tank with a fist? I know you said infantry too but you don't need to fire the combi melta.

That's my point about the 6 units. They're not big and won't take his entire army to deal with, that's your misconception here, not mine. And yes it does lumber behind, your alpha strike units are up front in the opponents face, where is the single Land Raider, Predators and other Sternguard? Behind dude, c'mon....Scouts are 5 men, assault them. Speeders aren't high priority target so can be ignored they've only got heavy flamers, Sternguard I guess will be split so just torrent until gone not hard to kill 6 and then 5 Marines, send melta units over to Land Raider bye bye Raider, don't need to kill Terminators just stop the Land Raider.

The Terminators will not be ignored. Any smart general would send a unit to disable that Land Raider and tackle the rest. All my armies have the ability to deal with those alpha strike units and go for the Land Raider on turn 1.

If you're taking deathstar units you need two, not one or else in larger games with lots of fire power running around it will be targetted, this is what I keep saying to you and you don't understand.

My list is your list and is my point about piecemeal and does the same as yours. Your Terminators don't make assault until turn 3 as you said, same with deep strike, if lucky. Only difference between my list and yours is deep striking two more units. Also it doesn't lack a deathstar, you miss the Terminators?

As mentioned, don't need to deal with Lysander turn 1, just the Land Raider. You've got 8 targets to deal with turn 1 and the list I proposed has got 8 too....

I'm aware about the single Drop Pod, that does suck. Though a extra Drop Pod is better than single Rhino which doesn't do nothing, yes? And yes, my list is piecemeal, as I said, because it's based off yours, which is dealt with piecemeal. Either way both lists get dealt with piecemeal which is a bummer and what is the entire problem.

As I said, got the same amount of targets turn 1, except my list doesn't have the single Land Raider to get taken out with on turn 1.

I'm gonna leave it as is now as I feel going around in circles. The units you have due to small numbers aren't hard to take out, that's a fact. The single Land Raider will have a bullseye on it and that's a fact. Your small units will be dealt with turn 1 no doubt, you said yourself Pedro doesn't live past turn 2 and the Terminators wil be foot slogging. I think you've been playing at G.W stores too much using poor lists which has rubbed off on you what happened to the decent lists you used to make?

I would love to play this list with a good Tau list. See if the game is unwinnable then.

If you're getting hit with railguns left right and centre, then that land raider, those predators, and the terminators aren't going to last long. The massed shooting of FW with Pathfinder's markerlights is going to decimate your low AV vehicles, and your Scouts. That leaves a Rhino, a DP, and some Sternguard . . . That's the only bit I'd be worried about NOT killing in the first turn. Good deployment, and target allocation from Tau could stop your alphastrike in it's tracks. You need more things that can be shot, or else you'll be dead, or foot slogging by the time you get there, and there goes the alpha strike.

Oshova