Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey All,

My current 1500pt list runs 3 squards of Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents as troops. I was thinking of swapping out one unit for guardians.

What is the best config for guardians in a full Mech list? Storm or normal? Lock with which powers? I have never played them and was just wondering how Dakka feels about it?

For reference - my full list

Doomseer / Rowar

10 DA exarch Bladestorm
10 DA exarch Bladestorm
10 DA exarch Bladestrom

5 Fire Dragons
5 Fire Dragons

5 Wave Serpents (1 Scatter lasers, 2 EML, 2 Shuri Cannon - All TL)

2 Fire Prisms

Total is 1496.

This list is very solid and I am not complaining about the quality, and from what I have read some people will say that swapping DA's for Guardians is a mistake but I just want to shake it up a little?

Comments?

Storm Guardians with 2 Flamers and a Warlock with Destructor seem to be a popular build, especially in a mech force.

Disembark for burny fun!


Defender Guardians are essentially Dire Avengers, but worse, and they have to pack a heavy weapon. Not really worth it in a mech force IMO, since DAs does the job so much better, from greater range, with more shots (bladestorm) and higher BS.

What are you going to do with the leftover points once you've invested in inefficiency?

The Storm Guardians work out to about the same points once you've paid for the 'lock, but they're not as flexible and normally can't assault after disembarking. The Stormies are probably still your best bet if you insist on using Guardians - 2x Flamers and Destructor.

I've been using a similar 2000 point list recently that has been working well - there is a full squad of dakkavypers, the farseer and DAs are fully upgraded (2x dual cats, 1x diresword - and I don't use Eldrad out of personal preference ), and the FDs are in EML Falcons.

I am not sure what to do with the points. I was thinking of improving the survivability of the Fire Prisms. Adding some powers to the doomseer.

I am actually trying to convince myself about the use of guardians because i believe it will reduce the overall power of the list. Destructor and 2 flamers, same in terms of upgraded 10 man DA squad?

You save about 40 pts if you take the storm guardians.

Defenders are only really useful in a foot army marching along next to your Avatar and laying down some heavy weapon fire.

If you want to go guardians in a mech force, your only option is storm. I'd recommend going full flame choices. It does really well against horde or anything in cover, often times outperforming Avengers using Bladestorm.

Storm Guardians with 2 Flamers and a Warlock with Destructor seem to be a popular build, especially in a mech force.

I second this. This unit is good for horde control.
I'd stay away from Guardian Defenders in a Serpent, since their impact is too low.

Yes I always run this squad in my mech lists and even in my hybrid lists

10 Storm Guardians w/ 2 flamers + Destructor warlock (127)
Wave Serpent w/ TL, EML, Chin cannon, SS (140)

this is a staple troop choice for me I personally prefer it to DAs in a serpent (which works out nicely since I play Ulthwe craftworld) I tend to run a Farseer with Doom, Fortune and Spirit Stones using this as a end game objective grabber/contester fortune the Serpent and tank shock / position it next to an isolated objective then next turn hop out and hit the doomed squad with 2 flamers and a destructor then charge

Then if successful the unit goes to ground on the objective and the wave serpent gets fortuned again and moves flat out to contest another objective

Ive had a lot of success using this tactic where my DAs tend to just get hit with every blast weapon in my opponents army after bladestorming once

So incorporating the changes I have the following configuration:

HQ

Farseer with the following configuration:

Doom, RoWar, SS, Fortune

Elite

FD x 5
WS TL Shuri Cannon
FD x 5
WS TL Shuri Cannon

Troop

DA x 10 Exarch, Bladestorm, Dual Shuri Cata
WS TL EML
DA x 10 Exarch, Bladestorm, Dual Shuri Cata
WS TL EML
Storm Guardian x 10, Flamer, Warlock, Destructor
WS TL Scatter Lasers

Heavy Support

Fire Prism
Fire Prism

Problem is this list is now 11 points over. Only way I can really think of getting it lower is to swap the TL Scatter Lasers down to Shuri Cannons. Any other thoughts?

Well for starters I have no idea why you would give your Farseer Fortune in this list, nothing absolutely has to stay alive for you to do well (like a JetCouncil) and even if you do cast it there is nothing in this list which its really going to help survive anyway (any of your infantry caught outside a transport is still going to die). The only thing which you can possibly use it for is Fortuning a Fire Dragon Serpent as it boosts forward, but even that won't always keep them safe. Doom would be your best bet, helps out pretty much everything in your army, followed by Guide, which you can use to boost the Avengers. You can also drop the Singing Spear to save a few points, that Farseer should be hiding in a vehicle all game anyway. The only way he would be throwing the Spear at vehicles is if a) he is outside a vehicle with an infantry squad which wastes their anti infantry abilities b) he is outside a vehicle and by himself, which means you are in an incredibly desperate situation and he is probably dead next turn.

The easiest place to free up points is to drop the two EML Serpents down to Scatters, but this leaves you completely relying on the Dragons and Prisms for heavy AT work. The next best place would probably be the Avenger units, you could run the Exarch with only a single Catapult (can't remember if this saves you enough points) or even trim them down a bit (a large squad without an Exarch is still usable or drop right down to a 5 man DAVU unit). I really don't like running Shuirken Cannons on Serpents, the lack of range reduces you to just being a infantry delivery system. On Fire Dragons you can get away with it (but again I don't recommend it, sometimes you want to be able to hang back) but on scoring Serpents its not really a good idea.

In any case you really need to free up another 20 points somewhere, not taking Spirit Stones on the FD Serpents is asking for trouble. Unlike the rest of your army which is going to be hanging back as much as possible, the FD Serpents have to get in close to drop off the Dragons and you really don't want to get stuck or the Serpent dies too (which makes it nearly a 200pt trade for whichever vehicle you decided needed to die rather than an 80pt trade).

Anyway back on topic, I really recommend Flamer Guardian units like this, I find them far better than Avengers for dealing damage. A big Bladestorm unit gives you a burst of anti infantry firepower, but it very rarely will give more than one. They have to pull back/run away next turn in any case but T3 4+ means that if they get shot or caught in assault then the unit is gone. As you are relying on mass shots to bring targets down every casualty significantly reduces the units capabilities. Flamer Guardians on the other hand have 3 guys you actually care about and then 8 meatshields. While they are even more fragile than the Avengers, the enemy has to completely wipe out the unit to remove it as a threat (the Warlock is usually the last to go, and the HF is the biggest threat). More importantly flamers ignore cover, so they are far more effective at dealing with hordes than the Avengers. Having said that I would never rely completely on Storm Guardians, mostly as Avenger units can be made far cheaper to give you more scoring units/vehicles.

lol if you take guardians in that list, it would be EXACTLY the same list Im using.
I give them starcannons, maybe a little meta gaming style, but it works well when you really need that extra shot or 2 in a kill point game


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh except I dont have warlocks for them...Might get one for the fun of it