Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I am just starting up an Iyadian force ("Ghost army") and am looking for some 5th ed pointers, as most of the info I have been finding from research are 4th.

First, I play mostly fluffy armies and just because I like the way they look and feel. Im not the "win at all costs" player, though I do win a good deal. Most of my local group is rather similar and we do not have many of them.

I cant find out what would really work best as a counter charge unit for me. My lists is based around:

Farseer (or mabie 2) with fortune and guide (I like the reroll to hit with only 10 shots, getting those few more hits is great)
2x 10 WG w/ spirit seer
2 WL BL/ELM/2xflamers

From here, Im just a bit stuck as to where to continue.

I think that Harlequin would do well, put them with a shadowseer and have then walk in front on the guard for the first turn or two. the guard move up, unload their beams of warp into the opponent, any survivors could be charged by the Harlequin and either wiped out or (hopefully) a few survive, trying the unit up though my opponents turn then either killing them in their assault phase, if not Hit and run out so I can get another round of shooting at them or re-assault for the re-charge.

Now, what has me questioning what would work best is the fact that I don't really want the unit to wipe them on the charge, because then they are vulnerable to a counter charge or even worse, being shot up without the cover of the guard, but I dont want them to get my guard tied up. Also in the event that I do screw up and they get the charge on my guard, I want to get them out as quick as possible (which I see the the Harlequin working well for this with SO much possible damage in theory).

Here are how I see the others options:
Harlequin: Hard hitting, but no staying power for the (hopeful) single phase of return hits. Good mind game unit though* (more in a sec)
Warp Spiders: I may be seeing this way off, but these actually seem like a bit of an option. They move like jump troops, so they can just jump over the guard in the movement phase, Exarch with Power weapons, and 3+ save. They wont do alot of damage, but what they can do is support shooting, stick a unit in combat for a turn, then jump back out so that unit can be shot up another turn. Maybe Im way off though, I dunno.
Striking Scorp: Good with lots of attacks and some real staying power, however no hit and run, thus just stuck in combat.
Banshees: Just dont like them much. Not a fan of the models, the fluff, and larely str 3 with no staying power. Not even considering them really as they dont seem to bring me anything

*One of my friends I play with used Harlequin for a while, even in a tourney and put the fear of them into sevral people. Most are not terrifed and stay way from them as much as possible...

I was going to use the Harlequin with kisses, shadowseer, and deathjester (because they will not need the run as they will only need to much as fast as the WG). Im not sure of how many.

Also wondering if mabie it would be better to try to work in 2 med size units, one with staying power the other with real punch so they can go where needed.

Most of my opponents: Speed Freaks/CSM (heavy Plague), Kan Wall, Woves/guard, Codex marines/horde guard, horde guard
There are a few more players around, but these friends are the one I play 80% of the time.

I normally like to run one general purpose list as I don't see tipping as a lot of fun. Looking at aground 1500 first, then build up to 1750. Also planning to put in a pathfinder team or two for objective camping/fire support, but that is something for the list forum I believe.

Thanks for any help!

Well, the Harlies are a pretty good unit to team up with the WG... I've also run Maugen Ra in with the Harlies to great effect... He and the Jester shooting, both pinning weapons, his rending and potentially ignoring cover and re-rolling to wound... :-) Fun choice, not hugely competitive... But it just might surprise a lot of folks... The Seer is the key of course, without her, the Harlies are pretty much sol...

Spiders are actually pretty good at hitting transports/lighter walkers... I like them a lot as a "light cav" option to zip around a flank and harass things... Might even kill a few here and there :-) Just the number of shots from a unit of 6+ Exarch hitting a horde make it something that can't be ignored easily...

WG with fortune up and the conceal or just their armor save are annoyingly difficult to actually kill... And with the WL nearby, hopefully you won't get bogged down in combat... Though perhaps an Autarch or the like tooled out for HtH to help might work out for you...

Ok... i made an 1850 Iyanden list and it went a little something like this... I've put it down to 1500

10x Wraithguard, Warlock, Spiritseer, conceal - 396
10x Wraithguard, Warlock, Spiritseer, conceal - 396
Wraithlord, EML, Brightlance, 2 flamers - 155
Wraithlord, EML, Brightlance, 2 flamers - 155
Eldrad - 210
Yriel - 155

1467

Now this is not alot of models, Eldrad can keep you fortuned up, guided if needs be and mind war and sarges with fists in the area. If you need to counter charge use the lords. Or charge out Yriel on his own into a big group of enemies, they pile in, you eye of wrath (you should doom these just in case) and they all die!
But again thats not alot of models. For 1500 i'd only run 1 unit of WG... something like this...

10x Wraithguard, Warlock, Spiritseer, conceal - 396
10x guardians, EML - 100
3x jetbikes, lock, destructor, spear - 124
Wraithlord, EML, Brightlance, 2 flamers - 155
Wraithlord, EML, Brightlance, 2 flamers - 155
Wraithlord, EML, Brightlance, 2 flamers - 155
Farseer - Fotrune, Mind war, doom, stones, RoWit - 160
Yriel - 155
5x harlequins, kisses - 110

1500

This list has the benefit of T:6 infantry and 3 lords plodding up the field.
The guardians can hide at the back and claim objectives, if you need more survivability from range drop them and get 5 pathfinders (making one WL BL a sword to save the points)
The bikes are just fun, having something fast to move about, a well timed destructor can do some real damage too. Also there good for the late game objectives that the rest of your force cannot reach due to be too slow or getting held up in combat.
Same thing with Yriel as before, hes just too fun.
Farseer should be casting fortune every turn, doom if yriel is charging out of you go on a plasma missile spree (all those pinning tests should pin something!). Mind war i feel is very important to this list to get rid of those powerfists hiding in units and should be used as much as possible. WG can take marines, it gets a bit dodgy when PF are thrown in.
The harlies are there for a counter if you need it, however i've found 5 spiders work better.
The harlies are a threat, but 3 WL should be a suffifient counter charge unit, especially with 6 flamers (doom doom doom!). If you use your pinning weapons right maybe you'll get the charge off =) As such i rarely need the harlies so spiders suit me fine. Taking out a tank from the rear or finishing off small units is what they seem to excell at.

I would use Harlies because they cant be seen to well plus they hit like a ton of bricks.

Have you considered Shining spears? Str: 6 power weapons on the charge. Fast so you can get them where you need them to be. And finally hit and run to get out of combat and set up for the next charge. You can retreat them behind a unit of wraith guard or a wraith lord to keep them safe during your opponent's turn. Only down side is that they cost as much a their number in WG.

just for reference, here is a list that i built for Wraith units:

Farseer - Doom/Fortune, Warding

8 X Harlequin - Shadowseer, Death Jester, Kisses

10 X Wraithguard with Spiritseer
10 X Wraithguard with Spiritseer

3 X Wraithlord - Brigthlance & Wraithsword

Using 4+ cover save from harlequins(who are hidden anyway) -> wraithguard -> wraithlord?

total points: 1493/1498 based on farseer power

Lots of super hard to kill stuff. Walk all the units in a block. Use the harlequins to bail out any of your wraithguard that get locked in combat.

Fun list.

Depends, transport or not? No transport = harlequins or warlocks with farseer. Heck, I might take a farseer with harlequins anyways.

Transport? Scorpions. Why? Because you now have an iinfiltrating or outflanking (your choice) waveserpent.

Well, I'd consider Harlies and Warp Spiders.
Spiders can intercept fast moving units and Harlies are perfect for counter-charge since they hit hard.
Have an Avatar nearby to help out if the situation gets grim.

Thank you all for your replies.

Wuestenfux, I am starting to consider a something like a 6 man team with excharch w/ power blades and duel spinners and withdraw as well as a 6-8 man harly team in 1750. How well do spiders survive?

Scuddman, The entire army is going to be on foot. Is a warlock team that hard hitting in combat to be used as a counter charge? They seem kind of meh to me. 3 attacks on the charge each wounding on 2 with normal armor saves. Then T3 with 4++ with only 6 or so wounds to go arround? Perhaps I just have not looked at them right, but I see the nasty in them with the spam of flamers then a finish up charge. Would you not touch scorpions on foot? I would not take the infiltrate as the whole idea is for them to counter assault/support the WG. Only thing in the army not in my "block" would be pathfinders/rangers if I took them, and they are mostly for just camping anyway.

Phyrephly, I really like that list... However, just a few questions: Do you take conceal or enhace on the spirit seers. My one game I have tested (that was a gimp game from the start, but I wont go there right now) I used one of each and enh just seems to not fit at all, just dont see it on the list. Also, how do you use your lords? Ive not seen the lance and sword yet.

Mmm...Pi, No, not really. They look alright, but I think I may run into the same problem I already have with too expensive single models. Also they don't seem like they would fit my feel or the fluff with this army. Also, I think the models look HORRID, Perhaps thats just me, but I dont like them.

Dayve110, I like that first list alot, only thing Im not a fan of is Yriel in it. He looks like he would be a beast and great in the list, but breaks fluff to much for this list. He is a pirate and I dont seem him operate on his own in a craftworld Iyanden list. Mabie that me, but Im strange I almost never use named characters at all, I feel it restricts my fluff a bit to much. I think I have actually only ever used 3 sence I started back in 5th even, and not normally. However, Eldrad is just too awesome for me to turn down. I am going to rename him and do some conversion stuff to make him fit better fluff wise, but wow...he is too amazing. What I really like is I can have fortune on both my WG units and guide on or or anything really.

Pchappel, Maugen is a BEAST and I really like spiders. I have heard people complain that they need new models, but I really like them, especially the excarch.

Thanks everyone! Feel free to keep the ideas rolling

Yriel came back to the craftworld to save them from the nids. I'm not sure if he remained there or started pirating again.
Either way, hes usually all the counter-attacking i'll ever need in such a small list. Wraithcannans can decimate most things that cannot charge over 12"
I'd consider Fortunex2 then either mind war or eldritch storm for Eldard. Doom can be usefull but your wounding on 2+ anyway. Guide won't help until your in range also.
Depending on which WL you have, the WG can provide a cover save to them (old ones only, the new ones are slightly too tall i think)

I'd consider using Warwalkers as your 3rd heavy choice. I play and army like this and you need the long range fire power.

:-) Never been a huge fan of the swords on the WL's, I just like the extra heavy weapon fire to cover the advance... But with so few attacks, the re-roll is nice...

Multiple Fortunes would also be really nice... Even the 5+ with a re-roll starts to save a fair number of times...

pchappel, I dont have much experience with WL at all, but I do know they are feared. How would one with a sword/SL work for a counter charge unit (like what I'm considering the spiders for)? They look like a real beast...but so few attacks makes me not want to charge anything with any numbers and a power first will slowly eat him up (or quickly). Everyone tends to use fists at my local area. Marine sarges with fist, orks with claws everywhere. Even guard with hidden fists and power weapons.

CaptKaruthors, couldn't a WL work just about as good at this role or even better? He can survive MUCH more fire, more accurate, and he fits the fluff even more.

dayve110, I think I am the only one left that still like the old lords. I have not compared how tall they are to the WG or new one (my WG come in on Friday), but that is just another plus. I do want one of the "sniper" modifed new WL. Wonder if this would be possible on the old ones.


How would a Warlock unit work as a counter charge? I've heard great things about them, but never tested it. All wounding on 2 with a good inv save, but the downside seems to be no power weapons at all and few attacks. Im trying to fit a unit of harleys and WS in with my base, but it starts to come out to almost 2k already, lol.

So I think I have it narrowed down some.

I really like the harlies, but there are 2 down sides to them. 1) They break fluff always being in the army. They are suposted to be rare and really only show up fighting a few opponents. 2) Fairly Fragile. Seeing that I play a decent amount of orks, I think they would be badly hurt with the number of attacks that come back. Same if I failed to kill whatever it was that I assulted before I H&R. Correct me if I am wrong though. The configuration Im looking at for 1500 and 1750 is this:
5 harlies w/ kisses
Shadowseer w/kiss
Deathjester (support and he is an amazing model)

Scorpions looks great, only problem is not H&R so when I charge in, they are stuck until someone is dead. They seem like they will really help fighting most of the people that I play. I have always loved the models and they fit just fine in the fluff.
6-7 Scorpions
Excarch w/ Claw and Biting Blade (not sure if I should the move through cover or not, does not seem badly needed)

And finnaly:
Warp spiders. I dig the models, and they can do as a duel purpose. They can act as fire support, unloading to finish off whatever my WG failed to kill off (like hordes) and then counter chargeing whatever is left. Now, that im not 100% sure of with these guys as I have never seen them or used them. The idea is not so much to win the combat, as stay alive (via fortune possibly as well) untill the end of my opponets combat phase, then H&R out and open up another round of shooting. Down side is that I dont know how well these guys fair used this way, and they are the most expensive of the 3.
6-7Spiders
Excarch w/Duel spinners, Power Blades, and Withdraw

In 1500 I dont think that I will need more then one, not sure which though. In 1750/1850 thinking that 2 may be nice, but may be over kill.

I know this thread is likely nearing its end as I have most of it straitened out. I would still like a few more pointers (and plan to do some testing on Sunday) before I pull together lists.

Thanks everyone!!

I tend to use my WL's as fire support and a big threat to deter HtH... Yes, they can die to fists, but remember for the most part you're only looking at 50% of the Marine/Ork attacks hitting then 50% wounding... I'd probably use the Spiders, keep them near/behind the WG until something gets close... Move out, shoot, assault and then use the "hit and run" to get clear the next turn for the spidersn and WG to shoot them up and assault again if needed... Might work...

If you're playing horde armies, you're going to be in a bit or trouble. Wraiths don't put out much volume of fire for their cost (it is high quality shots on a hard to kill model). So, I think you might find that those hordes are still fairly numerous when they get to you.

As such, I'd suggest you expect needing to lay down a large number of attacks. For that, I'd totally go with Scorpions. The Str 4 really helps against Orks, and getting 3 attacks per model (4 on the charge) can

A squad of 10 is amazing, although I don't know if you can fit that into your list. The exarch upgrade is worth it, IMO, but don't go with the Claw. Remember, it only increases his Str to 6, not 8. Coupled with the fact that he drops to I1 from 6, and I actually consider it a downgrade. The Biting Blade is all you really need.