Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So having abitt of a tiff with a local player and friend over some 8th edition hijinks. as i under stood the sitch with cannons, its that you pick your target within your line of sight(standerd 90s degree arc ) and than pivot the canon so it's aimed at it. The guy i was playing with claimed it could only pivot in the movement phase. I can't figure out where he is getting this idea and was hoping you guys could help out.

ElaborateLove wrote:So having abitt of a tiff with a local player and friend over some 8th edition hijinks. as i under stood the sitch with cannons, its that you pick your target within your line of sight(standerd 90s degree arc ) and than pivot the canon so it's aimed at it. The guy i was playing with claimed it could only pivot in the movement phase. I can't figure out where he is getting this idea and was hoping you guys could help out.

lol, does your opponet also play 40k? That is a 40k rule. Pivoting is done in the movement phase. It has always been played that you can pivot when you shoot or just keep the cannon still and measure from the tip of the cannon for every shot.

The pivot is done in the movement phase -it is outlined in the rulebook undering 'cannon' it is a valid stated rule. I do forget which page it is but it is near the end of the rules just before the senarios.

But the cannon can fire a 90 degree arc in front of it during the firing phase. So if your target is within that arc you can fire at it (do not move the cannon, that will change its arc and can be called as cheating, or tampering - since you might not move it back to its true earlier position. -Just ask before games next time to avoid that mistake) It is best just to leave as is though.

syanticraven wrote:The pivot is done in the movement phase -it is outlined in the rulebook undering 'cannon' it is a valid stated rule. I do forget which page it is but it is near the end of the rules just before the senarios.

But the cannon can fire a 90 degree arc in front of it during the firing phase. So if your target is within that arc you can fire at it (do not move the cannon, that will change its arc and can be called as cheating, or tampering - since you might not move it back to its true earlier position. -Just ask before games next time to avoid that mistake) It is best just to leave as is though.

Pg. 109 of the small rulebook under shooting with war machines. Before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target (this doesn't count as moving). I dont know where you saw otherwise?

Sorry edit, In addition, there is no 90 degree line of site restriction that I have ever seen this edition, or last edition for war machines.

Tomb King wrote:

syanticraven wrote:The pivot is done in the movement phase -it is outlined in the rulebook undering 'cannon' it is a valid stated rule. I do forget which page it is but it is near the end of the rules just before the senarios.

But the cannon can fire a 90 degree arc in front of it during the firing phase. So if your target is within that arc you can fire at it (do not move the cannon, that will change its arc and can be called as cheating, or tampering - since you might not move it back to its true earlier position. -Just ask before games next time to avoid that mistake) It is best just to leave as is though.

Pg. 109 of the small rulebook under shooting with war machines. Before you fire the war machine, pivot it to face your chosen target (this doesn't count as moving). I dont know where you saw otherwise?

Sorry edit, In addition, there is no 90 degree line of site restriction that I have ever seen this edition, or last edition for war machines.

I'm sure I read it in the BRB just last night. Maybe I am wrong though. I dont have the book with me as im at my GFs but I will certainly look that up again dont want to cheat anyone.

The 90 degree LOS rule is in the general shooting rules, not in the warmachine rules.

It is open to interpretation as to whether warmachine shooting is restricted by the same overall rules as general shooting.

Yet another great editing job by GW.

Vulcan wrote:The 90 degree LOS rule is in the general shooting rules, not in the warmachine rules.

It is open to interpretation as to whether warmachine shooting is restricted by the same overall rules as general shooting.

Yet another great editing job by GW.

GW did fine. A cannon is a single model and therefore has 360 line of sight and is allowed to pivot without counting as moving.

Single models do not have 360 line of sight.

Killjoy00 wrote:Single models do not have 360 line of sight.

This. Single models have normal facing and line of sight like everything else. I would definitely play it as war machines have a 90 degree arc, which they must set in the movement phase.

pg119 "choose target" of the BRB reads as follows "Nominate a point within the war machines line of sight and that is not outside the cannon's maximum range. Your target does not have to be an enemy model; it can be a point on the ground if you wish. Remember that war machines are allowed to pivot in the movement phase, the better to bring your chosen target into the weapons line of sight"

pg 109 "befoe you fire the warmachine, pivot it to face your chosen target"

From what I am reading you have to choose the target first and so yes you would have to pivot in the movement phase to bring your intended target within the 90 degrees forward arc.

So, it would go something like this?

1. In movement phase, think ahead about what you want to shoot and pivot your war machine to face your intended target so the target is within the war machine's front 90 degree arc
2. In the shooting phase, choose said target within front 90 degree arc and pivot war machine so it's facing directly at it.
3. Fire war machine.
4. Rinse and repeat next player turn.

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:So, it would go something like this?

1. In movement phase, think ahead about what you want to shoot and pivot your war machine to face your intended target so the target is within the war machine's front 90 degree arc
2. In the shooting phase, choose said target within front 90 degree arc and pivot war machine so it's facing directly at it.
3. Fire war machine.
4. Rinse and repeat next player turn.

Spot on

Ditto.

90 Degree Arc, which is set without penalty in the movement phase.

The Cannon is then aligned with a target within it's 90 Degree in the shooting phase.

Though it does beg the question....what if my opponent lines up incorrectly? Could this lead to a missed shot?

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:So, it would go something like this?

1. In movement phase, think ahead about what you want to shoot and pivot your war machine to face your intended target so the target is within the war machine's front 90 degree arc
2. In the shooting phase, choose said target within front 90 degree arc and pivot war machine so it's facing directly at it.
3. Fire war machine.
4. Rinse and repeat next player turn.

lol guess i goofed on the 360 LoS. Just never had an issue.

The answer to the question on this thread would be:
You can pivot in the movement phase and pending your desired target is within the 90 arc in the shooting phase you can pivot again to face them. So if your target was within the 90 degree LoS then your opponet was wrong.

Does the same thing apply to stone throwers? If it does, it looks like I've been playing my Hellcannon wrong.

It's in the rules regarding all warmachines, so yes all machines shoot that way.

Ah that was the part I was referring to. I knew I read at least something similar to what I said.

Although I didn't think you could then pivot it in the firing phase and leave it there. That could of been annoying if they never added the free pivot rule in movement.

Well the whole point of this rule is that if the enemy shifts his position after you'r movement phase in some way (like say fleeing due to taking casualties due to spells/other shooting, or by some special rule) you're still able to get you'r sights on him.

Thanks for the answers people, you've confirmed my side of the story. Man and i had such a sweet shot lined up too.

I'm not sure its that cut and dry, though. Let me throw this out there.

Pg 109 : "The war machine can move using the rules for Lone Models (pg 27)".

Pg 27 says "..although a lone model that pivots on the spot does count as moving for the purposes of shooting and so on."

So that leaves me to believe that the cannon can pivot in the shooting phase, only to line up a shot with a target that was already in its 90 degree LOS arc.

Pg 109 "All War Machines have the Move or Fire special rule"

Same page "LOS is taken from chosen firing point", followed by "before you fire, pivot to face your chosen target"

That leads me to believe the process is:
1) Check LOS (90 degree arc) - target is in LOS
2) Turn war machine to face 'that' target (so only pivoting within the 90 degree arc)
3) Fire war machine.

Of course, I've seen it played the other way as well. It makes war machines much trickier to use, as the enemy might move out of its LOS arc, which means it won't be able to fire if it has no targets in its arc in the shooting phase.

Cruentus wrote:I'm not sure its that cut and dry, though. Let me throw this out there.

Pg 109 : "The war machine can move using the rules for Lone Models (pg 27)".

Pg 27 says "..although a lone model that pivots on the spot does count as moving for the purposes of shooting and so on."

So that leaves me to believe that the cannon can pivot in the shooting phase, only to line up a shot with a target that was already in its 90 degree LOS arc.

Pg 109 "All War Machines have the Move or Fire special rule"

Same page "LOS is taken from chosen firing point", followed by "before you fire, pivot to face your chosen target"

That leads me to believe the process is:
1) Check LOS (90 degree arc) - target is in LOS
2) Turn war machine to face 'that' target (so only pivoting within the 90 degree arc)
3) Fire war machine.

Of course, I've seen it played the other way as well. It makes war machines much trickier to use, as the enemy might move out of its LOS arc, which means it won't be able to fire if it has no targets in its arc in the shooting phase.

Hmm, I went through the rule book and checked your logic.

1. All war machines are Move or Fire unless stated otherwise. Pg.27 says that they can pivot as much as they want and it doesn't prevent models from moving or shooting later on, but it finishes with saying that if a lone model pivots on the spot it does count as having moved for purposes of shooting. What I read as RAI is that a lone model, whether it moves or just pivots on the spot, can still fire its ranged weapon (i.e. bow, etc), but it has a -1 to hit for moving. However, we know that a war machine is Move or Fire, so even though it's a single model and can pivot on the spot in the movement phase, it will count as having moved, and thus cannot fire due to Move of Fire special rule.

2. Following the previous bullet leads me to believe then that whatever your facing is after the movement phase is where your front arc 90 degrees is. So, you really need to think ahead when you deploy the war machine so you can maximize the front arc. I'm thinking a corner would be good as you can cover most of the battle field. So, in the shooting phase you have to choose a target that is in your front 90 degrees. It is possible that the unit you wanted to shoot could have shifted positions due to panic or something else. So, your carefully laid plans could get smashed. This means you need to plan your shooting out so that you don't cause an unintended panic. It also means you need to think about how much panic you cause in the magic phase. After you check to see if the target you want to shoot at is in the front 90 degree arc you then get a free pivot move in the shooting phase with your war machine to face the intended target which doesn't count as moving, which still allows you to shoot.

3. You then fire.

4. The next shooting phase is where it gets tricky. Because you pivoted to face your enemy, your front arc will have shifted. So, if you pivot to shoot a unit that is away from the main battle line then you may have to use a turn to pivot the next movement phase to get into position to see units again. This will waste that player turn as you pivoted in the movement phase, thus not being allowed to shoot that turn.

I think Cruentus actually caught this one. I agree with his logic. It makes war machines less powerful overall as they lose their opportunity to shoot if they pivot in the movement phase. It makes deployment and facing of the utmost important choice. I like this because it adds to your tactical decision making. I think this passes RAW.

Anyone care to verify?

Respectfully,
DarkAngelHopeful

of course, certain warmachines no longer need los to shoot

Leith wrote:of course, certain warmachines no longer need los to shoot

Are you talking about mortars and such? But wouldn't they still need to designate a point on the table that is within their front 90 degree arc? Because even single models still have facings now, they don't have 360 degree shooting capabilities.

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:

Cruentus wrote:I'm not sure its that cut and dry, though. Let me throw this out there.

Pg 109 : "The war machine can move using the rules for Lone Models (pg 27)".

Pg 27 says "..although a lone model that pivots on the spot does count as moving for the purposes of shooting and so on."

So that leaves me to believe that the cannon can pivot in the shooting phase, only to line up a shot with a target that was already in its 90 degree LOS arc.

Pg 109 "All War Machines have the Move or Fire special rule"

Same page "LOS is taken from chosen firing point", followed by "before you fire, pivot to face your chosen target"

That leads me to believe the process is:
1) Check LOS (90 degree arc) - target is in LOS
2) Turn war machine to face 'that' target (so only pivoting within the 90 degree arc)
3) Fire war machine.

Of course, I've seen it played the other way as well. It makes war machines much trickier to use, as the enemy might move out of its LOS arc, which means it won't be able to fire if it has no targets in its arc in the shooting phase.

Hmm, I went through the rule book and checked your logic.

1. All war machines are Move or Fire unless stated otherwise. Pg.27 says that they can pivot as much as they want and it doesn't prevent models from moving or shooting later on, but it finishes with saying that if a lone model pivots on the spot it does count as having moved for purposes of shooting. What I read as RAI is that a lone model, whether it moves or just pivots on the spot, can still fire its ranged weapon (i.e. bow, etc), but it has a -1 to hit for moving. However, we know that a war machine is Move or Fire, so even though it's a single model and can pivot on the spot in the movement phase, it will count as having moved, and thus cannot fire due to Move of Fire special rule.

2. Following the previous bullet leads me to believe then that whatever your facing is after the movement phase is where your front arc 90 degrees is. So, you really need to think ahead when you deploy the war machine so you can maximize the front arc. I'm thinking a corner would be good as you can cover most of the battle field. So, in the shooting phase you have to choose a target that is in your front 90 degrees. It is possible that the unit you wanted to shoot could have shifted positions due to panic or something else. So, your carefully laid plans could get smashed. This means you need to plan your shooting out so that you don't cause an unintended panic. It also means you need to think about how much panic you cause in the magic phase. After you check to see if the target you want to shoot at is in the front 90 degree arc you then get a free pivot move in the shooting phase with your war machine to face the intended target which doesn't count as moving, which still allows you to shoot.

3. You then fire.

4. The next shooting phase is where it gets tricky. Because you pivoted to face your enemy, your front arc will have shifted. So, if you pivot to shoot a unit that is away from the main battle line then you may have to use a turn to pivot the next movement phase to get into position to see units again. This will waste that player turn as you pivoted in the movement phase, thus not being allowed to shoot that turn.

I think Cruentus actually caught this one. I agree with his logic. It makes war machines less powerful overall as they lose their opportunity to shoot if they pivot in the movement phase. It makes deployment and facing of the utmost important choice. I like this because it adds to your tactical decision making. I think this passes RAW.

Anyone care to verify?

Respectfully,
DarkAngelHopeful

Reading your post actually upset me. I blame GW for your interpretation. I guess it is a make your own call forum. I believe you are looking to much into it. I believe the wording for lone models covers the model as moving for sake of a -1 to hit. Never have I not been able to pivot a war machine and not be able to fire it that turn for it. Nor shall I ever. If you have a local group that wants to play it that way thats fine. However, practicality over rules a slight loop hole the can be interpreted wrong.

Tomb King,

I encourage you to get less upset about stuff like this, there is plenty more to be upset about in life, I know (I'm stuck here in Afghanistan for many days past the end of my orders). However, my interpretation the same as the person who posted it before me are following RAW. If you want to house rule it to play how you want, that's a different story, but it will be a house rule, not RAW.

Respectfully,
DarkAngelHopeful

EDIT: We'll error on the side of caution

Just to throw a spanner in the works, from the GW FAQ;

Q: Does pivoting on the spot count as movement for the purposes of
units, other than war machines, with the Move or Fire rule?(p73)
A: Yes.

the wording of this seems to imply that pivoting does not affect a cannons (or any other war machines for that matter) ability to fire as it doesn't count as a move.

Don't know why I am argueing for cannons as I play Wood Elves

WombleJim wrote:Just to throw a spanner in the works, from the GW FAQ;

Q: Does pivoting on the spot count as movement for the purposes of
units, other than war machines, with the Move or Fire rule?(p73)
A: Yes.

the wording of this seems to imply that pivoting does not affect a canons ability to fire as it doesn't count as a move.

Don't know why I am argueing for cannons as I play Wood Elves

WombleJim, this is good insight. I was skimming through the FAQ to find something for this scenario and I must have missed that. In light of this question/answer from the FAQ I would revert back to my first post with the following process and the added italics.


1. In movement phase, think ahead about what you want to shoot and pivot your war machine to face your intended target so the target is within the war machine's front 90 degree arc. Note, according to FAQ this does not count as movement for war machines.
2. In the shooting phase, choose said target within front 90 degree arc and pivot war machine so it's facing directly at it.
3. Fire war machine.
4. Rinse and repeat next player turn.

Respectfully,
DarkAngelHopeful

I think DarkAngelHopeful has it. The above suggestion is both RAW and sensible.

I assume the only reason this could be significant is if a unit panics and flees as a result of one lot of shooting, and ends up out of the arc of fire of another unit that had wanted to hit it. This is, of course, always a risk. Panicking units can get in the way of other shooters and disrupt plans. Choosing who to shoot in what order, and factoring in whether you would keep targeting the same unit if it fled, are important tactical considerations. If you want to play any other way, probably best to make some house rules.

Out of interest, are there other cases where units can move in their opponent's shooting phase?

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:

WombleJim wrote:Just to throw a spanner in the works, from the GW FAQ;

Q: Does pivoting on the spot count as movement for the purposes of
units, other than war machines, with the Move or Fire rule?(p73)
A: Yes.

the wording of this seems to imply that pivoting does not affect a canons ability to fire as it doesn't count as a move.

Don't know why I am argueing for cannons as I play Wood Elves

WombleJim, this is good insight. I was skimming through the FAQ to find something for this scenario and I must have missed that. In light of this question/answer from the FAQ I would revert back to my first post with the following process and the added italics.


1. In movement phase, think ahead about what you want to shoot and pivot your war machine to face your intended target so the target is within the war machine's front 90 degree arc. Note, according to FAQ this does not count as movement for war machines.
2. In the shooting phase, choose said target within front 90 degree arc and pivot war machine so it's facing directly at it.
3. Fire war machine.
4. Rinse and repeat next player turn.

Respectfully,
DarkAngelHopeful

Thanks for posting that faq statement. That is how I have always played it and knew it to work. I simply could not find the evidence to prove it.

13 extra days in afganistan? I have year of worse but that does suck because you were probably ready to see your family. I think you mistook my amount of being upset. I was frustrated per say. What MoS and Unit? I got a brother in Germany with the Airborne IN unit out their and another brother in Florida with the marines and I am a reservist until I graduate college then I am green to gold.

I'm in the Air Force, but I have been assigned to the Army out here. I'm in Force Support.