Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Alright so this is a revised list I made. It's a 2000 point list that is desinged to have a lot of guardians. And does anyone know how long Shining Spears still have STR 6 power weapons. Is it just the turn the round they assualt or the entire turn. At the same time, do I still get it if I'm assaulted?

HQ
Avatar of Khaine

Eldrad Ulthran

TROOPS

18 Storm Guardians, 2x Flamer
Warlock, Destructor

18 Storm Guardians, 2x Flamer
Warlock, Destructor

10 Storm Guardians, 2x Melta
Warlock, Enhance
Wave Serpent, TL Starcannon, Spirt Stones

10 Dire Avengers
Exarch, Bladestorm, 2 catapults

ELITES
10 Holwing Banshees
Exarch, Executioner, War Shout, Counter Assault.
Wave Serpent, TL Bright Lance, Spirt Stones

6 Fire Dragons
Wave Serpent, TL Bright Lance, Spirt Stones

Heavy Support
3 War Walkers 2X Scatter Lasers

3 Support Weapons, Shadow Weaver.
Warlock, Embolden.

Eldard will be with the Banhees

Total: 1999

I have decided to remove the support weapons. That gives me an extra 120 points, suggestions?

Its on the turn in which you charge

I think you would be better served by dropping the banshees for Harlies, as they add a much better counter charge unit for the Avatar- due to veil of tears. Eldrad can still run with them effectively.

I would run switch your large squad of storm guardians for Defenders with EMLs. In a Wave Serpent Storm Guardians are awesome, but when slogging up the field, having some extra long range guns to shoot while you move is very nice, I'd recommend eldar missile launchers as blast templates are ok to shoot from bs3, and it can provide extra anti tank in a pinch. Also switch the warlock power to conceal, so you almost always have a saving throw against incoming fire.

I would also take smaller squads of guardians, 3 squads of 10 is better than 2 squads of 15 because you can get 3 heavy weapons as opposed to 2. 3 packs of 12 will give you the same number of bodies, and more big guns.

Drop the Dire Avengers, unless you can fit them into a wave serpent.

Use any extra points to pick up wraithlords with bright lance and wraith sword. The sword helps when the game devolves into cc, and the lance helps you pop transports.

Shining spears only get the S6 PWs on the assault phase when they charge. You do not get it if your opponent charges you, or during any other phase. This is part of why they aren't top-class units - they either destroy a unit on a charge, and get shot up next turn since they're too expensive and fragile. Or, they are still in combat, and over the two phases before it's good to Hit and Run, they get chewed up a fair bit. During that second phase of assault, unless you're in combat against 2-3 models, you are likely to lose combat and take a morale check, your exarch may have to take a wound and fail, losing the H&R ability . . . just don't take shining spears, ok? Mine are consigned to the foam from whence they came.

List looks like a good start with some problems. If you are taking Eldrad and the avatar (goood combination) I would also take a full 6 troop choices on foot. A good combination might be 4 units of storm guardians, some with 2 flamers and destructor, some with 2 fusion guns, enhance and a singing spear.

Then 2 units of guardians with embolden and an EML or scatter laser. I know that looks odd, but your avatar will want to advance up the field, and you'll need people to stay behind and hold objectives. You could use pathfinders in that role, but I've had bad experiences with them - they're an expensive unit that justifies the cost against some armies, but dies instantly to any flamer type attack.

In elites I would take at least one unit of harlequins with a shadowseer to screen the advance with their veil of tears ability. One or two units of fire dragons are a must for any eldar army, they're a better value than storm guardians. Wave serpents for these guys should have spirit stones and one of the cheap guns, shuriken cannon or scatter laser. Giving fire dragon waveserpents BLs is a waste IMO - they are usually priority targets, they ususally go flat-out the first turn, they usually unload and then die after the second.

For heavy support, I have only ever seen people take war walkers or wraithlords. I don't think artillery in general is that great - its possibly the easiest thing in the game to kill - and I don't think you get great killing power for your buck.

Here is the list as I would suggest:

Avatar
Eldrad
3x 10 Storm guardians, 2 flamers, warlock w/destructor
1x 10 Storm guardians, 2 fusion guns, warlock w/enhance, singing spear
2x 10 Guardian, EML, warlock w/embolden

5 FDs, Wave Serpent w/shuriken cannons, Sstones
5 FDs, Wave Serpent w/shuriken cannons, Sstones
8 Harlequins with kisses, shadowseer

2 War walkers w/scatter lasers
2 War walkers w/EMLs

That's 1987 points - you could probably cut something to fit more war walkers. My point is, your army doesn't seem to have any specific role in mind for its mechanised units. I would use only war walkers and infantry except for those fire dragons (and if you wanted, and felt you had enough anti-tank, you could cut them and give more storm guardians fusion guns).

Hope that helps. Oh, and never take starcannons. Ever.

akaean wrote:I think you would be better served by dropping the banshees for Harlies, as they add a much better counter charge unit for the Avatar- due to veil of tears. Eldrad can still run with them effectively.

I would run switch your large squad of storm guardians for Defenders with EMLs. In a Wave Serpent Storm Guardians are awesome, but when slogging up the field, having some extra long range guns to shoot while you move is very nice, I'd recommend eldar missile launchers as blast templates are ok to shoot from bs3, and it can provide extra anti tank in a pinch. Also switch the warlock power to conceal, so you almost always have a saving throw against incoming fire.

I would also take smaller squads of guardians, 3 squads of 10 is better than 2 squads of 15 because you can get 3 heavy weapons as opposed to 2. 3 packs of 12 will give you the same number of bodies, and more big guns.

Drop the Dire Avengers, unless you can fit them into a wave serpent.

Use any extra points to pick up wraithlords with bright lance and wraith sword. The sword helps when the game devolves into cc, and the lance helps you pop transports.

I think I'll keep my banshees. It's a combination of me not having enough money, and I already bought them. I do want them though, but I don't see why they can't coexist.

I'll keep the Storm Guardians, but I will lower the squads some, and drop the support weapons for another squad of guardians defenders.

I won't put the dire avengers ion a transport. I want them to footslog across the table. I think with all the 50 other guardians some of the fire will be taken off them. if they really do that bad, I'll take em' out.

A wraithlord is a maybe. I'll have to see if I need it.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Shining spears only get the S6 PWs on the assault phase when they charge. You do not get it if your opponent charges you, or during any other phase. This is part of why they aren't top-class units - they either destroy a unit on a charge, and get shot up next turn since they're too expensive and fragile. Or, they are still in combat, and over the two phases before it's good to Hit and Run, they get chewed up a fair bit. During that second phase of assault, unless you're in combat against 2-3 models, you are likely to lose combat and take a morale check, your exarch may have to take a wound and fail, losing the H&R ability . . . just don't take shining spears, ok? Mine are consigned to the foam from whence they came.

List looks like a good start with some problems. If you are taking Eldrad and the avatar (goood combination) I would also take a full 6 troop choices on foot. A good combination might be 4 units of storm guardians, some with 2 flamers and destructor, some with 2 fusion guns, enhance and a singing spear.

Then 2 units of guardians with embolden and an EML or scatter laser. I know that looks odd, but your avatar will want to advance up the field, and you'll need people to stay behind and hold objectives. You could use pathfinders in that role, but I've had bad experiences with them - they're an expensive unit that justifies the cost against some armies, but dies instantly to any flamer type attack.

In elites I would take at least one unit of harlequins with a shadowseer to screen the advance with their veil of tears ability. One or two units of fire dragons are a must for any eldar army, they're a better value than storm guardians. Wave serpents for these guys should have spirit stones and one of the cheap guns, shuriken cannon or scatter laser. Giving fire dragon waveserpents BLs is a waste IMO - they are usually priority targets, they ususally go flat-out the first turn, they usually unload and then die after the second.

For heavy support, I have only ever seen people take war walkers or wraithlords. I don't think artillery in general is that great - its possibly the easiest thing in the game to kill - and I don't think you get great killing power for your buck.

Here is the list as I would suggest:

Avatar
Eldrad
3x 10 Storm guardians, 2 flamers, warlock w/destructor
1x 10 Storm guardians, 2 fusion guns, warlock w/enhance, singing spear
2x 10 Guardian, EML, warlock w/embolden

5 FDs, Wave Serpent w/shuriken cannons, Sstones
5 FDs, Wave Serpent w/shuriken cannons, Sstones
8 Harlequins with kisses, shadowseer

2 War walkers w/scatter lasers
2 War walkers w/EMLs

That's 1987 points - you could probably cut something to fit more war walkers. My point is, your army doesn't seem to have any specific role in mind for its mechanised units. I would use only war walkers and infantry except for those fire dragons (and if you wanted, and felt you had enough anti-tank, you could cut them and give more storm guardians fusion guns).

Hope that helps. Oh, and never take starcannons. Ever.

I appreciate the help, but you didn't need to make another list for me. I'm trying to create a list that's different from others, but is still somewhat competitive, and I really don't need 2 squads of fire dragons for that. No list is perfect.

My storm guardians w/ flamers, need a larger squad size. If they don't have conceal or a transport, they'll die before they make it across the board. However I will add another squad with defenders with an eldar missile launcher.

If(I mean when) I field harlequins I will have kisses all around and a troupe master with powersword. That could make all the difference in a fight. They're to fragile to be left in extended combat. So I have to make sure to kill most of them as possible. Essentialy for 20 points I'm getting 5 power weapon attacks on a charge. And if I;m hitting on 3's and wounding on 4's, that's a game changer right there.

I like the starcannons. It's designed to go hand in hand with the meltas in the transport.

HQ
Avatar of Khaine

Eldrad Ulthran

TROOPS

15 Storm Guardians, 2x Flamer
Warlock, Destructor

15 Storm Guardians, 2x Flamer
Warlock, Destructor

10 Storm Guardians, 2x Melta
Warlock, Enhance
Wave Serpent, TL Starcannon, Spirit Stones

10 Guardian Defenders, EML
Warlock, Conceal

10 Dire Avengers
Exarch, Bladestorm, 2 catapults

ELITES
10 Holwing Banshees
Exarch, Executioner, War Shout, Counter Assault.
Wave Serpent, TL Bright Lance, Spirt Stones

6 Fire Dragons
Exarch, Tank Hunters.
Wave Serpent, TL Bright Lance, Spirt Stones

Heavy Support
3 War Walkers 2X Scatter Lasers

Total: 1999

And once again the banshees with Eldrad.

I don't see the point in having >10 guardians per squad, when you have the avatar to make them fearless. 20 guardians get killed at the same rate as 2x10, so wouldn't you want the better number of special weapons and the flexibility?

It's not a flat-out bad list or anything, but I think you're better off with Guardians than DAs if footslogging, better off with harlequins than banshees, and better off with wraithlords+war walkers than wave serpents.

Starcannons are mathematically a poor choice. You're paying more than a scatter laser, to be worse against vehicles, worse against anything in cover, only better against elite marines or maybe terminators (but not the ubiquitous TH/SS kind) out in the open - and even then the differerence doesn't justify the expense.

Biggest problem with this army, IMO, is the banshees. I don't think units in wave serpents (ie close-topped transports with rear hatches) make good counter-assault units.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Biggest problem with this army, IMO, is the banshees. I don't think units in wave serpents (ie close-topped transports with rear hatches) make good counter-assault units.

Talking from experience against an Eldar player that fields a squad of 8 Banshees in a Wave Serpent (1 being an Exarch - gearing changes depending on opponent), they can be very fierce and put into very quick action if terrain is used wisely. I've rarely seen her lose the Wave Serpent before it drops off its cargo and I've not once seen her lose her Banshees to shooting until after they've already pulled down more than their points worth. They're best used offensively for sure.

Not seen Harlies used yet but they seem to have a lot more versatility than Banshees from what I've read of them.

List seems pretty well balanced but I'd personally be inclined to drop some troops and take a Wraithlord. They're pretty tough to take down and can dish out a lot of firepower if geared up properly. It'll help take some heat off your serpents and walkers - I imagine most of your opponents would probably want to blow up the serpent carrying your banshees and fire dragons pretty sharpish.