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I think MajorTom is spot on with everything he is saying.

I also work professionally as a graphic designer and illustrator (I have my own business and have worked for some big names like Barclays Bank and Nokia), and I didn't see anything wrong with the competition. ~$200 for maybe an hours work, on something that actually seemed quite fun (you wouldn't believe the mundane stuff I have to work on sometimes) If I'd seen the topic I probably would have considered having a go myself.

One problem I frequently have as an artist is that most everywhere I post work, I get bombarded by emails and PMs from people I don't even know wanting me to draw them stuff 'as a favour'. Because they would like a portrait of themselves, or because they think they could use a picture for some lame project they have in mind (usually a website) and that I've got nothing better to do than to draw it for them. Sometimes they offer me the promise of small-change or fame on the offchance that their lame ass website/homebrew comic book ever makes any money... Like they are actually doing me a favor bringing me this wondrous opportunity.

It's not limited to the Internet either, in real life I get asked all the time to design tattoos and other rubbish, with no prospect of payment.

People don't seem to realize that something like that might take hours or days of my time. And all the while I have my rent and my electricity and my food which I still have to pay for, just so I can continue work for free on their BS project. They seem to think it's no big deal, like I can just pull something out of my ass while I'm waiting for the kettle to boil, but in reality it's my time and my money.

Compared to those guys; someone offering quite a decent prize for what will probably be very little work is actually a quite a nice find.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:If the client has to go to school for and have experience at graphic design to tell the difference between the Real Designer's logo and one put together by some guy who spend 15 minutes with photoshop, why should he pay 5x as much for the Real Designer? According to what you just said, the vast majority of people who see the logo won't be able to tell the difference, as they haven't been to school and worked as a graphic designer, and paying a bunch more just to have a logo that appeals to graphic designers doesn't make any sense. If your 'pro work' is indistinguishable from 'basement designer work' to 99% of people who see it, it's really not worth paying more for.

The difference is probably going to be quality of workmanship. Unfortunately some people have no eye for quality and no taste either, probably not as many as 99% of people, but definitely some (like pretty much all producers), and there is no accounting for them.

But for most people I think it tends to boil down to the "I could do that" factor... If someone shows you something which you know how to do, and know it's easy, then it's usually going to be unimpressive. Conversely If someone shows you something that you don't know how to do, or know is difficult then you are usually impressed.

I'm sure if I went back to 1600 and showed people some crappy photos that I took with a disposable camera, they would probably hold me in awe as the greatest painter of all time. However if I came to you now and said "hey check out my awesome painting" and showed you a crappy snap from a disposable camera... I'm sure you would tell me to f**k off.

Photoshop isn't anywhere near as old and well established as the camera, so there are still a few people around who are easily impressed by things that anyone can do with almost no ability or training. And this is certainly frustrating for people who do have ability and training, and who try to do quality work.

Perhaps it is these 'basement designers' that are perpetuating the myth that designs can just be pulled out your ass in 5 mins, and it's mostly done by the computer anyway, because for them... it's true.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

SmackCakes wrote:The difference is probably going to be quality of workmanship. Unfortunately some people have no eye for quality and no taste either, probably not as many as 99% of people, but definitely some (like pretty much all producers), and there is no accounting for them.

The post I was originally responding to stated that you would need to go to design school and have experience as a graphic designer to tell the difference between the Real Designer's logo and one that some Fake Designer made. I doubt that more than 1% of the population went to school for and worked as professional designers, so the percent that would not be able to tell the difference according to what MajorTom said would be 99% or more. If his statement was true (I don't think it is), then there really would be no point in hiring a Real Designer, as something from a Fake Designer would be indistinguishable from the real product for virtually everyone who sees it, and much cheaper.

If the 'Real Whatever''s work can only be distinguished from the 'Fake Whatever''s work by someone who's gone to school for and worked as 'whatever', then the only reason to pay more for the Real Whatever's work is to impress other Real Whatevers, which most people don't care about.

That's a fair point. It is certainly true that a portion of any artists work will probably only be fully appreciated by other artists. Though I think even non artists will still appreciate things on the level that they work well and never give trouble.

In some cases it is true that less than 1% of people (even trained designers) could spot the difference... At least not at first glance. But that doesn't mean there is no difference, it might take time for the cracks to develop. You might discover that your Logo won't print correctly because it is not comparable with CYMK, so you always end up with curious lines in your gradients, or that it never seems to look right in black and white, or on certain screens, or can't be discerned at small scales or at low bitrate. You might discover that when you try to put your logo onto a different colored background you end up with nasty artifacting around all the edges. Your logo might look fine on screen, but try putting it on the side of a van, or a bill board, or even on something small like the side of a pen... Did the designer create clipping paths for your logo? Is there a vector based version stored anywhere? If not then you might need to pay someone to redraw it. Logos need to be very robust, because literally no one knows where they might eventually end up. There are a myriad of problems that could arise with a logo. Someone who is not properly experienced/qualified could easily overlook even well known problems that will certainly arise.

Chibi Bodge-Batte wrote:never mind SmackCakes, could be worse. You could be a doctor and have people bugging you off duty to look at various body parts.

While that could certainly put you off your lunch, I feel doctors still have it easier... All they are really expected to do is say "Hmmmm... looks like herpes" and that is their job done in 5 seconds. It isn't hours of delicate work like painting a picture. But like MajorTom said a lot of people don't seem realize how much work is involved. I think artists more than any other profession get disrespected and taken for granted. No one expects a brick layer to build a house in half a day. No one goes up to a musician with a piece of paper and says "hey could you just quickly write a song for me". No one goes to a mechanic and says that they want him to make their car fly. And no one hires a composer to write music for their project, and then literally just has them write down notes as dictated by someone who knows nothing about music, ignoring any and all advice on musical theory and arrangement.

Yet with artists and designers, people frequently seem to expect that you should be able to create masterpieces, in impossible times, for next to no money. Whilst simultaneously preventing you from doing anything decent by consonantly interfering and insisting that "I want this blue, and those over here, and that bigger, and can you make that guy look like he has diabetes?¿? " Despite the fact that they have zero understanding or composition or colour theory or storytelling through pictures.

And then when you tell them you can't deliver the impossible, or you give it your best shot to entertain their stupid demands, but it inevitably ends up looking awful... they turn round and say something like "Meh I knew I should have hired someone else, you're not a real artist".

Wrexasaur wrote:Given enough experience you can spot those clients in five questions or less. All in all it doesn't matter as long as you get paid. If you open yourself to accepting stupid demands from bossy clients, you'll be the one to pay the price. It may be difficult given the general lack of work artists and graphic designers face, but it is not beyond reason to be discerning in the jobs you take on.

Oh, your response to clients that spew nonsense like you stated at the end of the post, should be something along the lines of: "I knew you werent a paying customer, if only I had listened to my instinct."

Spot those clients before they can screw you, because there are more than enough that are willing to do so.

Ahhh indeed. I read a great article a few years ago called 'clients or grinders' Link which described these people to a tea. Nowadays I usually just quote a daily rate that I'm comfortable with, and then double it. That's usually enough to filter out time wasters (Though I like to think money well spent for serious clients). But that doesn't change people's attitudes in general.