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In previous incarnations of 40k I used to get hammered as people claimed that they could see the large fins on the back of the old raider (you know above the rocket engine!)

Now with tlos and the new raider mini I have the following question:

does the sail count as part of the vehicle (as in not an antenna or whatever) ie if you can only see the sail can you shoot the raider down?

and is it cheesy to remove the tall parts so your raiders can more easily hide as in the bottom picture below?

I wouldn't count it as part of the Hull in the same way I would not treat an antenna as part of the hull for LoS purposes.

Phototoxin wrote:and is it cheesy to remove the tall parts so your raiders can more easily hide as in the bottom picture below?

Perhaps, but not as cheesy as claiming LOS to decorative elements of a vehicle and firing.

Is the sail the hull?

If your answer is "no" then it doesnt matter if you remove it or not, it isnt a valid target.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Is the sail the hull?

If your answer is "no" then it doesnt matter if you remove it or not, it isnt a valid target.

This.

If I were to pick up DE again, I would remove the sail anyway because it looks silly!

BTW, your question is the 2nd into my Local draft of the FAQ (After "How do ranged poisoned weapons work?", as I assume they don't fix that for DE when ignoring it for SM and BA).

Just watch Gwar, they are going to surprise you for your hubris and word it correctly!

Gwar! wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Is the sail the hull?

If your answer is "no" then it doesnt matter if you remove it or not, it isnt a valid target.

This.

If I were to pick up DE again, I would remove the sail anyway because it looks silly!

BTW, your question is the 2nd into my Local draft of the FAQ (After "How do ranged poisoned weapons work?", as I assume they don't fix that for DE when ignoring it for SM and BA).

I'm expecting we will need a FAQ for the special rule that grants bonuses for wiping out enemy units when combats aren't a straight 1 on 1 affair.

I just have no faith that GW can navigate the delicate minefield that that rule has the potential to be.

Gwar! wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Is the sail the hull?

If your answer is "no" then it doesnt matter if you remove it or not, it isnt a valid target.

This.

If I were to pick up DE again, I would remove the sail anyway because it looks silly!

BTW, your question is the 2nd into my Local draft of the FAQ (After "How do ranged poisoned weapons work?", as I assume they don't fix that for DE when ignoring it for SM and BA).

Yay - sensible people :-)

Basically this is what used to be shot at (assume the green was cover that you can't see through)



And I'd get a krak rocket in the tail... But if its not the hull then jolly good :-)

This is what my raiders will be playing as they capture souls for She Who Thirsts:

If your opponents really do claim LOS on the sail, just glue all your dark lances to the top of the sail and shoot back!

And then you're modeling for advantage .... the sail is hull ...

(and im even going to be buying DE and say that ... people always want more than theyre given sheesh)

sail is not a hull. Wings are not a hull. antenna are not a hull.

I dont think DE are tacking their way across the board so the sail is just cosmetic. That and the slave skimm...er raider looks better without it.

Walrus wrote:sail is not a hull. Wings are not a hull. antenna are not a hull.

I dont think DE are tacking their way across the board so the sail is just cosmetic. That and the slave skimm...er raider looks better without it.

Actually, wings can magically become part of the hull if we're talking about a Valkyrie, even though every definition I've ever seen of either of those terms screams otherwise.

daedalus wrote:Actually, wings can magically become part of the hull if we're talking about a Valkyrie, even though every definition I've ever seen of either of those terms screams otherwise.

You have serious issues targeting Eldar vehicles as well then?

(Also, the word on a. . .flyer should be "fusilage" if you want to nit-pick)

The issue with Valkyries and Vendettas is that they have weapons mounted out on their wings, which means technically they can shoot around corners without being shot back, so most players seem to reason that you can shoot back.

It would be like if you mounted your Dark Lance up on top of the sail of the Raider. It sits behind cover and is "completely out of LOS" but "its gun can see you."

Similar issue to Deffrolla size, as a matter of fact.

Xca|iber wrote:The issue with Valkyries and Vendettas is that they have weapons mounted out on their wings, which means technically they can shoot around corners without being shot back

You mean like tons of other vehicles? (Aka almost everything with Sponsons)

Yeah, how is that different from anything with sponsons, a razorback, a whirlwind, an exorcist, the Tau ship that has the smart missile rack going across the top of it...?

daedalus wrote:Yeah, how is that different from anything with sponsons, a razorback, a whirlwind, an exorcist, the Tau ship that has the smart missile rack going across the top of it...?

Well, to be fair, the Whirlywind of Doom™ is Barrage...

daedalus wrote:Yeah, how is that different from anything with sponsons, a razorback, a whirlwind, an exorcist, the Tau ship that has the smart missile rack going across the top of it...?

Because normal sponsons don't stick out nearly as far. Even if a predator/russ was in a position to shoot around a corner with a sponson weapon, anything it's shooting at would almost certainly be able to reposition to gain LOS to the hull of the vehicle. Due to the distance that Valk sponsons stick out (with regard to the wing-mounted weapons), this may not always be the case. Naturally, it shouldn't really come up that much due to how tall the thing sits above the battlefield.

I was really just responding to why lots of people play that you can shoot Valkyries if only their wings are visible.

Okay, but what about a razorback who is sitting behind a hill that is 4" tall, such that it's hull is blocked but the gun is free to fire?

I've played in games that it's happened in, so it's far from hypothetical.

Turrets are specifically target-able so the razorback gets shot.

The rules don't give any explicit rules for determining what is a turret or not, I think that in general people are going to treat any weapons mount as a turret (and hence targetable) because otherwise you get the 'I can shoot you, you can't shoot me' silliness going on.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:The rules don't give any explicit rules for determining what is a turret or not, I think that in general people are going to treat any weapons mount as a turret (and hence targetable) because otherwise you get the 'I can shoot you, you can't shoot me' silliness going on.

Except that there are "Turret mounted" weapons, "Hull Mounted" weapons, "Sponson mounted" Weapons and "Pintle Mounted" weapons. Two of those 4 would constitute as "Hull or Turret". If you are saying that you can target my sponson (as it is a "turret") I certainly hope that you are willing to give me the full range of fire of the turret(360 degree arc)!

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

BearersOfSalvation wrote:The rules don't give any explicit rules for determining what is a turret or not, I think that in general people are going to treat any weapons mount as a turret (and hence targetable) because otherwise you get the 'I can shoot you, you can't shoot me' silliness going on.

Except that there are "Turret mounted" weapons, "Hull Mounted" weapons, "Sponson mounted" Weapons and "Pintle Mounted" weapons. Two of those 4 would constitute as "Hull or Turret". If you are saying that you can target my sponson (as it is a "turret") I certainly hope that you are willing to give me the full range of fire of the turret(360 degree arc)!

A sponson is a projection of a ship or airplane's hull, it's not a turret.

In my experience, most people tend to be pretty reasonable about what is 'hull'. This tends to be, but is not limited to:
any part of the model which is mandatory for the construction of the vehicle
turrets
But does NOT include:
gun barrels
antenna
banners

In this case, I think there is a pretty strong argument for treating the sail like a banner. It is optional, decorative, fulfils no obvious purpose in keeping the raider functioning...

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Except that there are "Turret mounted" weapons, "Hull Mounted" weapons, "Sponson mounted" Weapons and "Pintle Mounted" weapons. Two of those 4 would constitute as "Hull or Turret". If you are saying that you can target my sponson (as it is a "turret") I certainly hope that you are willing to give me the full range of fire of the turret(360 degree arc)!

There are no rules specifically about 'wing mounted weapons' or 'really long antenna mounted' weapons. If you have a weapon mounted on some object that projects 6" from what you're calling the hull around cover and try to fire it at me, I'm going to shoot back at you. I certainly hope that you're not the kind of TFG who models for advantage and then tries to use specific rule wording that doesn't even cover the situation to argue that he can shoot but can't be shot back at, but that's apparently not the case here. If you stick a brightlance onto an antenna and try to shoot without being shot, don't try to paint me as the unreasonable one.

If I feel really adventurous, I show up next week with a round barrel mounted on a 3 foot flexible extension arm and start firing my vindicator 50" around buildings and past my LOS-blocking rhinos that have extra armor modeled as a 6" high 12" long rectangular shield on one side and tell you that you can't target me because, hey, it's not a turret.

Is there a page ref for "wings is not a hull"? I would like to use that the next time someone shoots at my wave serpent