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Hello all, im working on a list for my girlfriend to play with in our gaming club.
Since we are all ambitious gamers who sometimes play at tournaments this list should meet a certain standard on the "tough list scale".

I for myself am not very confident with my knowledge about playing Eldar so i want to discuss with you the list i made.

Im not sure i used all the correct words as i translated it from the german version. So please tell me if something is unclear, im sure we can work it out.


*************** 1 HQ ***************

Eldrad Ulthran
- - - > 210 Points


*************** 3 Elite ***************

6 Firedrakes
- Exarch
- Firepike
- Sharpshooter
- - - > 121 Points

6 Firedrakes
- Exarch
- Firepike
- Sharpshooter
- - - > 121 Points

6 Firedrakes
- Exarch
- Firepike
- Sharpshooter
- - - > 121 Points


*************** 5 Troops ***************

3 Guardian Jetbikes
- - - > 66 Points

3 Guardian Jetbikes
- - - > 66 Points

3 Guardian Jetbikes
- - - > 66 Points

10 Dire Avengers
- Exarch
- E-Weapon & Field
- Defence (the 5+ ward save)
- Shurikenstorm
+ Serpent
- Shurikencannon
- Soulgem
- - - > 287 Points

10 Dire Avengers
- Exarch
- 2 hunting catapults
- Shurikenstorm
+ Serpent
- Shurikencannon
- - - > 252 Points


*************** 3 Unterstützung ***************

Falcon
- Shurikencannon
- Additional Engines
- Holofield
- Soulgem
- - - > 180 Points

Falcon
- Shurikencannon
- Additional Engines
- Holofield
- Soulgem
- - - > 180 Points

Falcon
- Shurikencannon
- Additional Engines
- Holofield
- Soulgem
- - - > 180 Points


Points total: 1850

Tactics:
Falcons and Drakes are there to kill the tanks, Avengers to kill everything that is not a tank or mc, Jetbikes are there to grab objectives and provide cover if needed.
Eldrad supports and is in one of the serpents.

Cheers all

(oh since its discussed right now on dakka please feel free to speak freely (without insulting my close relatives and/or heritage ) what you think of this list.)


EDIT: Updated List aka List 2

*************** 1 HQ ***************

Eldrad Ulthran
- - - > 210 points


*************** 3 Elite ***************

6 Firedrakes
+ Serpent
- Shurican
- - - > 196 points

6 Firedrakes
+ Serpent
- Shurican
- - - > 196 points

6 Firedrakes
+ Serpent
- Shurican
- - - > 196 points


*************** 5 Troops ***************

3 Guardian Jetbikes
- 1 x Shurican
+ Warlock on Jetbike
- Singing Spear
- Embolden
- - - > 129 points

3 Guardian Jetbikes
- 1 x Shurican
+ Warlock on Jetbike
- Singing Spear
- Embolden
- - - > 129 points

5 Dire Avengers
- Exarch
- 2 Shuri Cats
- Bladestorm
- - - > 92 points

5 Dire Avengers
- Exarch
- 2 Shuri Cats
- Bladestorm
- - - > 92 points

5 Dire Avengers
- - - > 60 points


*************** 3 Heavy Support ***************

Falcon
- EML
- Holofield
- Spirit Stones
- - - > 180 points

Falcon
- EML
- Holofield
- Spirit Stones
- - - > 180 points

Falcon
- EML
- Shurikencannon
- Holofield
- Spirit Stones
- - - > 190 points


Total points Eldar : 1850

What do you all think?

for a translation, its pretty good, and I think I got a handle on all the upgrades you want.


The list itself is decent, with the over arching problem that you have over upgraded a few things.

On your tanks, generally the only upgrade you should take are spirit stones and holofields, and you can make a very competitive list without them. The engine upgrade that prevents destruction on immobilized for flat out isn't worth it, and the engine upgrade that gives you an additional 12 inch movement in lieu of shooting is also rarely worth the extra points, 24inch turbo boost is often enough.

Fire Dragons (drakes) are over built as well, The exarch really will never earn back his points, and falcons are AWFUL transports for them.

The reason the exarch isn't good is because hes allready in a squad with 5 melta guns, having one that ignores smoke is almost never worth it.

The reason falcons are bad transports for them is because wave serpents are better. Falcons are built to be long range fire support units, holding a unit of 5 Avengers so they can capture an objective, and possibly a guide seer with warding. fire dragons are meant to rush straight into the thick of it, and nuke your enemies stuff, then die. a 100 point wave serpent is a far better transport for these suicide missions for a couple of reasons. First its 80 points cheaper than the falcons you want to field. Second, it only has 1 tl gun, so it shoots at full effectiveness even if it moves 12 inches, where as a falcon wastes a heavy weapon and cannot fire twin linked without a farseer. Third, the Wave Serpent front and side armor ignores extra dice (from melta, rending, and ordinance) which means that it has better armor up close. whereas the holofields on the falcon, in addition to being super effective, are more useful against long range anti tank weapons.

Essentially what you are proposing is putting a short range suicide unit, into an expensive long range fire support battle tank.... not good.

I'm not a huge fan of your Guardian Jetbikes either. a squad of 3 without a heavy weapon is alright for objectives, but a few upgrades can go along way.

I would take them in packs of 4: 3 with a shuriken cannon, accompanied by a warlock with embolden and a singing spear. This increases the squad size to an even number (good because you can now regroup after losing 2 models), gives you a re rolling leadership test (good because you want your objective holders to stay on the board), and it gives you a singing spear and a shuriken catapult to shoot at tanks with.

The only upgrade you should take on Dire Avengers are the 2 shuri catapults and bladestorm, the other stuff just isn't great for what the squad brings to the table.

it would also be a good idea to upgrade the weapons on the waveserpents holding your avengers. Scatter lasers and Eldar Missile Launcers are generally considered the best choices

to summarize
- drop fire dragon exarchs
- switch falcons for wave serpents for Drakes
- drop the additional engine upgrade on all your tanks
- switch all avenger exarch weapons to 2 guns
- add warlocks to jetbike squads
- upgrade weapons on Dire Avenger Wave Serpents.


Other than that, it looks like a solid start

Thank you very much, that sounds very thoughtful.
I will think it over and attempt a new list i hope you will comment on that one as well.

Cheers

EDIT: spelling error


Automatically Appended Next Post:
List added in first post.

The second list looks a bit better, just a few qualms

Dire Avenger Exarchs are a force multiplier, without any forces to multiply... they are a waste of points. For this reason you should only take them in squads of at least 8 Dire Avengers (in order to maximize the effect of blade storm). This means that min squads to make falcons scoring should be kept as cheap as possible, which essentially means no exarchs. Think of them as an upgrade to the Falcon to make it scoring in objective games.

On a similar note, while your anti tank is quite good, your anti infantry is extremely lacking. EML blast templates and shuriken cannons will only get you so far.

You also have more falcons than you can guide (since Eldrad can guide 2 times). Which isn't great considering they are bad shots and miss half the time, getting them re rolls should be a priority.

I suggest killing 2 birds with one stone, run 2 falcons with 60 point Dire Avenger Squads, and then upgrade your third squad into a full 10 man blade storming squad in a wave serpent.

In fact, you probably want 2 of these squads, having a good source of small arms fire is important in a list designed to handle all opponents. In my 1850 list I run a squad of bladestorming Avengers, and a squad of Storm Guardians with 2 flamers and a destructor lock in a waveserpent. Both provide an important small arms shooting element to my army list.

To be honest Falcons are past their prime. While with a guide seer and holofields they are a solid backfield fire support unit that can hold an objective, they tend to be outshone by Fire Prisms these days. I definitely don't think taking 3 of them is in your best interest. Take 2 tops.

I'd agree with akaean. But, I'd also add that you can drop the Fire Dragons to 5 each. 5 str 8+2d6 pen Ap1 is plenty for taking out tanks. The 6th Dragon is a bit of a waste of firepower, and the unit typically won't survive after taking out their target, so you end up wasting those points.

To expand on the Dire Avengers:
Basically you have two options for them

1: 5 Dire Avengers, Wave Serpent
2: 10 Dire Avengers with Exarch with Dual-Catapults and Bladestorm, Wave Serpent

I don't like running a squad of 5 in a Falcon, because the Falcon works best in back providing fire support, not necessarily up capturing objectives. If you need some more points, swap them out for Fire Prisms. You get almost the same firepower at fewer points.

I will comment on the second list, but for the record, Akaean is pretty much spot on on 90% of what he said. Some other things are debatable.

Also, I completely disagree with Grakmar on one things:

1. DAs in Falcons are good. Backfield fire support is often in an objective area or able to get there quick in the last turns of the game. Also, center-field objectives are hardly ever much more than a 24" turbo-boost away. Pretending you're going to keep a Falcon away from the enemy much more than T2-3 is naive. Positioning after that is reactive.

2. 5x DA in a Wave Serpent is pretty crappy. You're basically spending 60 points so you can have another WS. 5x DA do NOTHING in a game and get none of those points back unless they just drop out and add some shots to another DA squad's target. Pretending like tiny DA squads are going to make it long term to capture objectives is naive unless they're rolling in a Falcon.

Based on what you seem to want to take (Falcons, DAs, Fire Dragons) I'd suggest the following:

You don't need more than 2 dragon squads at 1850 - trust me. I only take one. DA squads are only 'effective' at larger squad sizes with bladestorm. (in foot lists they can be effective as tarpitters with PW/SS/Defend if Fortuned)

210 - Eldrad

96 - 6x Dragons
110 - Serpent, Stones, TL Cannons

80 - 5x Dragons
110 - Serpent, Stones, TL Cannons

152 - 10x Dire Avengers, Exarch, Dualcats, Bladestorm
155 - Serpent, Stones, TL Bright Lances (or EML for lower cost)

152 - 10x Dire Avengers, Exarch, Dualcats, Bladestorm
155 - Serpent, Stones, TL Bright Lances (or EML for lower cost)

60 - 5x Dire Avengers

190 - Falcon, Holo-Fields, Bright Lance, Stones (or EML for lower cost)

190 - Falcon, Holo-Fields, Bright Lance, Stones (or EML for lower cost)

190 - Falcon, Holo-Fields, Bright Lance, Stones (or EML for lower cost)

1850pts

That's just off my head, but if you want 3 falcons (I would recommend 1 falcon and 2 prisms or 2 Falcons and some Scatterlaser war walkers.

Alternatively, drop the 6th dragon in the first squad, upgrade the shuricannons to scatterlasers as they're better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to emphasize, the list I quoted was only to keep the general theme you were trying in your lists.

I think you'll do better with 2 Prisms, 1 Falcon and save yourself quite a few points.

Zain:

I've found that when I run Falcon's, they tend to be destroyed rather quickly as the enemy concentrates fire on them. That's why I typically don't use them for transport. Although, perhaps I don't protect them enough and that's just room for improvement in my play

You're right about the 5xDire Avengers not earning their points back. They typically never get out of the WS, they're more just a 60 point upgrade to the Serpent to make it scoring. Although, if you have first turn and can park the WS on top of an objective at the end of the game and it gets destroyed during your opponents assault, you can still contest the objective with the DA squad.

Thank you all for suggestions and lists. I will test the information you gave me with my lady in the gaming days to come .
Oh and im going to read your blog Zain60 for more information.
A conclusion i have drawn is that we need more serpents than i have.. i guess im going to buy 3 of them.
Drakes in squads of 5 sounds good too.

Cheers all

Grakmar,

Completely understand about the '60 point upgrade' thing. I've just come to the conclusion though, that too many Eldar players run minimally geared WS's with minsquad DAs and FDs and call that an army. In the end, transports are transports, and once they're gone, you have 1-5 dudes survive and drop out. What do they do? It's ok to throw a single or MAYBE 2 DA minsquads into an army, but I think you'll find they're not very useful. I think the conventional wisdom has gone a bit far on that issue.

Iron Angel,

My blog is kind of a narrative of getting back into the game. Also, a few lists that I use, etc. Please read and comment as much as you like, it's always appreciated to have thoughts other than my own.

I think at least 3 serpents is a good choice. I run 3, but most mech players run at LEAST 3. Sometimes 4-5 like Wuestenfux's 1500 list.

Zain60 wrote:
I think at least 3 serpents is a good choice. I run 3, but most mech players run at LEAST 3. Sometimes 4-5 like Wuestenfux's 1500 list.

Im buying 3 cause i have 1 already. I think im not making a mistake by owning 4 of them ^^.

Cheers

Iron Angel wrote:

Zain60 wrote:
I think at least 3 serpents is a good choice. I run 3, but most mech players run at LEAST 3. Sometimes 4-5 like Wuestenfux's 1500 list.

Im buying 3 cause i have 1 already. I think im not making a mistake by owning 4 of them ^^.

Cheers

You're definitely not making a mistake owning 4 of them. Even if you end up just using 3, you can always move up to a higher point game and take more!

Since we play Apocalypse every 2 months i dont see a problem with having "too much".
The tournaments are often 2000 points as well so it will never be a problem ^^.