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So I recently heard it mentioned that mechanized Space Wolves, Imperial Guard, and Blood Angels were the "Easy Button" in 40k. Okay. I disagree with this characterizations, so I thought that I might try and start a thread brainstorming ways of dismantling these armies. Prior to doing so, it's useful to review the rules, so as to understand the advantages and disadvantages of mechanization.

Firstly, the Imperial Guard: Chimeras have AV12 on their front and a couple of Heavy Weapons, and five Fire Points. They also have long flanks with AV10, the unit inside can be expected to ~3 casualties if the vehicle explodes, and there's only one way out via the back ramp, meaning it's easier to force emergency disembarkation. These are backed up by Artillery, Tanks, and VTOL support.

Second, the Space Marines: Rhinos are AV11 on their front and sides, with two Fire Points. Razorbacks are also AV11 front and sides, can have a Heavy Weapon and a Twin-Linked Special Weapon, and no Fire Points. These are backed up by Tanks and Dreadnoughts. Blood Angels can have up to six tanks, all Fast, while the Space Wolves can take very small infantry units to maximize the numbers of Razorbacks.

Typically a unit can only shoot one unit a turn, obvious exceptions including Long Fangs.

Both sets of vehicles will be prevented from shooting, and their passengers will be prevented from shooting, if the vehicle is Stunned or Shaken. Both sets of vehicles will have AV10 against close combat attacks, and will be hit automatically if Immobilized or Stunned, or just stationary. Both sets of vehicles will be hit on 4+ if moving between 1" and 6", and 6 if moving 7"+. They can all tank-shock, and ram.

The problem is that there are usually more armoured targets than can be engaged, while enabling the player to play very flexibly by either hanging back or advancing without much loss of firepower, and to protect the units embarked ('mechanized') from incoming fire until they either disembark or their transport is destroyed.

I think one of the most important things you can do is make sure you have a wide variety of anti-tank weapons and that they are spread throughout your army.

It used to be enough to have a few dedicated tank killers, enough to engage and damage 2-3 tanks a turn. However with armies fielding 10, 12 or even 15+ armored vehicles, you need more anti-tank then ever. The good news is that not everything has to be a Meltagun or Lascannon. Krak Grenades and Autocannons are two examples of weapons that are cheap enough to be spread around without spending too many points and both are effective counters to the AV10-12 range if used properly.

Target priority is key, and while i'm not going to pretend to know anything about BA or SW, I can say that its quite easy to have an army of Chimeras turn into a parking lot. Even if you only stun/immobilize 1 or 2 tanks a turn, sometimes it can be enough to render other parts of the army inneffective for a turn or two.

Lucid wrote:Target priority is key, and while i'm not going to pretend to know anything about BA or SW, I can say that its quite easy to have an army of Chimeras turn into a parking lot. Even if you only stun/immobilize 1 or 2 tanks a turn, sometimes it can be enough to render other parts of the army inneffective for a turn or two.

QFT! Nothing like going from Convoy to Car Wash in nothing flat!

I tend to play very aggressively against these types of armies, because if you let them dictate the pace of the game they will hem you in and slaughter you.

Cause an overwhelming threat to appear on one flank and put them off balance. I find that Drop Pods full of Nasty Space Marine Units(TM) backed up by long ranged fire support do this quite nicely.

Often you just need enough units firing back to stun/shake/immobilize the enemy long enough to send in some CC units to apply powerfists/klaws/Thunder hammers to them, or stick on some melta bombs or even krak grenades. People often forget their tac squads can take down most transports with their grenades, its actually pretty decent odds if you kept the unit from moving.

One of the tricks to doing this is having the mobility to catch a mech opponent, baring that, having long enough range and in enough quantity that you can keep him stunned long enough to engage. Easier said than done, but it is possible.

I haven't fought guard with them, but I have 7 autocannons in my 2000 point Chaos Marine army. (3 in CSM squads, 2 on Defilers, 1 with my Chosen, 1 with my terminators) I replace 1 of my meltaguns with an autocannon in each CSM squad and the Chosen to help deal with mech armies. So far they haven't failed me. My CSMs and Chosen sit in their rhino and use the fire point. During the first turn I sit back and hit the transports, one after another. I generally start with razorbacks until they are all at least shaken, then move to rhinos. When shooting at the rhinos, I am looking for at least a stun result. Once the autocannons finish firing, the obliterators shoot at a harder target such as a Predator, or finish off another transport. This has worked well against a lot of different armies so far.

Regular mech guard can be dismantled just as easily as anything else. The real shock and awe was the leafblower. Lots of alpha strike capability with the obnoxiousness of a bawkses wall.

Even this can be taken down, it's just that you have to be good at list building yourself, and be a good player. Leafblowers are "easy" buttons in so much as they clear out a lot of riffraff, but they're not unbeatable, as I'm sure any mech guard player who has faced off against DE or hasn't gotten first turn can attest .

As for space wolves, I dont' understand the fear. With the exception of longfangs, their stuff is rediculously expensive. They may have a lot of durability, but they threaten ELDAR in their inability to keep up their head of steam once units start dying.

As for BA, yeah, they can do some pretty nasty stuff. Unlike guard, there are lots of different nasty things that they can do, and unlike guard, they are difficult to know how to counter, because they throw a lot of the regular rules out the window (why yes, I CAN assault out of deepstrike. Why yes, my dreadnoughts ARE skimmers, etc.) The current manifestation of BA I think is the closest thing to an easy button, but, once again, if you know what you're doing, they can be stopped.

As I run a mostly mechanised IG list myself I can offer a few words on how best to take apart mech armies.

The key is being fully satisfied with a 'Stun' result on the damage table.

Far, far, FAR too many people seem to think that the only way to disable a mech army is to blow them out of their transports and then watch them mill around whlst you pick them off. The truth of the matter is that, whilst this is the best case scenario, simply stunning those AV11-12 transports seriously throws a spanner in the works; as you've effectively bought yourself a turn from not only the shooting that the tank would be doing, but also from the added manouverability the squad inside would be benefitting from.

If the mech player has deployed in a tight formation, stun the front tanks first. Now he has to waste time driving around the roadblock; which more often than not will result in another wasted turn.

If you run heavy weapon, split them up and deploy them on the flanks. This way whichever unit your opponent turns to face, he'll be exposing his vulnerable side armour to the other bunch of heavy guns.

Multi-assault, multi-assault, multi-assault. Nothing is more annoying than having one squad assault 2-3 Chimeras and shake/stun them. Getting a stun here is pretty much the death-knell of any vehicle as nothing likes getting hit automatically with S6/8 grenades on rear armour.

Thats all I've got so far.

L. Wrex

Funny how no responder so far has taken into account the key factors of whether you're going first and what the mission is. I learned everything I know about playing (and playing against) mech from Fritz's videos that I haven't been able to find again, or I'd provide a link. Please correct me if I've gotten something wrong--I can't review the videos.

If you get first turn, deploy and cripple your opponent with turn 1 shooting. If your army isn't capable of crippling a mech army in a couple of turns of shooting, it might be time to consider an upgrade if you expect to beat them. Then, once he's crippled, you can hide to stay ahead in KPs, or grab objectives for the win.

If you get second turn in a KP game, start everything in reserve. You'll get enough of your army in turn 2 to score a couple of KPs (because everything you have moves & shoots, right?). Then just hide most of your army behind terrain as it enters and stay a couple of KPs ahead until the clock runs out for the win. If your army isn't capable of pulling this off because it's static or doesn't have enough long-range shooting or enough units, it might be time to consider an upgrade.

If you get second turn in a 3-5 objective game, start in reserve. You only have to get your scoring units to one or two objectives in their transports (and you've hopefully positioned the 2-3 objectives you got to place for this purpose) and then even if the transport dies, they can hide behind the wreck to hold it. Send your extra, sacrificial units to contest. You only need to hold one objective more than your opponent for the win.

If you get second turn in the 2 objective mission, start everything in reserve. If you get a lot of your army in turn 2, send everything at your opponent's objective to contest, keeping the last scoring unit to enter in their transport on your own objective (again, unless the transport is blown up, they can use it as cover when it's destroyed). If you only get a few units, then you're kind of screwed, so hold your own objective and play for the draw.

Of course if your opponent has backfield-attacking units, as he should, you gotta deal with that. And if you're going second, bad luck can make the wheels come off really fast. And if you go first and your opponent starts all in reserve as he should, then you've got an actual game on your hands. But overall as an ideal to work for, I've found Fritz's tactics effective.

And again, if your army isn't mobile enough and shooty enough to pull off these tactics, then it might be time to consider meching up.

Properly played, Space Wolf Missile spam makes mech-IG damn near impossible to win with. Long fangs are a criminally efficient platform for anti-mech fire power.

In general, the key to beating mech is target priority. You need to figure out how the enemy is going to beat you, and then try to prevent that. Some mech forces use the transports mostly to move troops (like IG or rhino rush), while others use the transports themselves as attack units (razorback spam, DE Raider rush). Eldar generally combine the two, with powerful units hidden inside durable tanks with punch. In any given mission, only shoot at the the targets that are actually going to help the enemy win. Never forget that transports give up just as many KPs as the squads inside.

As has been stated earlier, stunning transports buys you time. Never shoot at a stunned transport unless you have no other targets, or you really need to crack it open.

Keep in mind that the more transports and other vehicles an army has, the less beef they have inside, so assaults become more feasible against them.

Ailaros wrote:Regular mech guard can be dismantled just as easily as anything else. The real shock and awe was the leafblower. Lots of alpha strike capability with the obnoxiousness of a bawkses wall.

Even this can be taken down, it's just that you have to be good at list building yourself, and be a good player. Leafblowers are "easy" buttons in so much as they clear out a lot of riffraff, but they're not unbeatable, as I'm sure any mech guard player who has faced off against DE or hasn't gotten first turn can attest .

As for space wolves, I dont' understand the fear. With the exception of longfangs, their stuff is rediculously expensive. They may have a lot of durability, but they threaten ELDAR in their inability to keep up their head of steam once units start dying.

:-) Especially with the DH's "We shoot deep strikers" allied ability going away...

With the Wolves, it really depends on what you are taking. The Termis get pricey quick, and really are not what I think the true strength of the Wolves are. I get fully kitted out GH squads in Razorbacks for under 200 points... Bring 3-4 and fill with Long Fangs and TWC :-) But honestly I don't really see the Wolves as a really great Mech force overall... Light Mech or Razor swarm, yes, but others I think do that far better... Though their Scouts are hugely effective against "leaf blower" lists I'd think... Assuming you have the lads kitted out for tank hunting and give them a Wolf Guard escort...

Ailaros wrote:
As for BA, yeah, they can do some pretty nasty stuff. Unlike guard, there are lots of different nasty things that they can do, and unlike guard, they are difficult to know how to counter, because they throw a lot of the regular rules out the window (why yes, I CAN assault out of deepstrike. Why yes, my dreadnoughts ARE skimmers, etc.) The current manifestation of BA I think is the closest thing to an easy button, but, once again, if you know what you're doing, they can be stopped.

:-) Ah, BA Mech... Yes, I think their Mech forces are at a fairly serious advantage with all Rhino hulls being Fast, the SR allowing their DN's and excellent Assault troops to get anywhere on the board quickly, and likely assaulting from the skimmer. Ultimately, I think they have a hefty advantage against other Mech forces with Fast Predators being able to come in from Reserve and fire everything, and the rest of their stuff coming from Reserve quite nicely sas well o that if they wind up getting 2nd trn against an Alpha strike force, they can more effectively reserve and go for the counter. Even if they get the first urn, they can deploy hull down or behind cover for the "just in case" the opponent seizes...

 Ailaros wrote:
Regular mech guard can be dismantled just as easily as anything else. The real shock and awe was the leafblower. Lots of alpha strike capability with the obnoxiousness of a bawkses wall.

Even this can be taken down, it's just that you have to be good at list building yourself, and be a good player. Leafblowers are "easy" buttons in so much as they clear out a lot of riffraff, but they're not unbeatable, as I'm sure any mech guard player who has faced off against DE or hasn't gotten first turn can attest .

Can you deliberate on this? I'm thinking of playing DE for the challenge, and am worried about Mech Lists.

":-) Ah, BA Mech... Yes, I think their Mech forces are at a fairly serious advantage with all Rhino hulls being Fast, the SR allowing their DN's and excellent Assault troops to get anywhere on the board quickly, and likely assaulting from the skimmer. Ultimately, I think they have a hefty advantage against other Mech forces with Fast Predators being able to come in from Reserve and fire everything, and the rest of their stuff coming from Reserve quite nicely sas well o that if they wind up getting 2nd trn against an Alpha strike force, they can more effectively reserve and go for the counter. Even if they get the first urn, they can deploy hull down or behind cover for the "just in case" the opponent seizes... "

Go ahead and try that. With the prices the BA pay. you have like two tanks. Hyperbole, but the BA are bad, bad list atm.

Holy thread necro Batman!

Yeah, tactics from 3 years ago are probably not as effective given the huge changes to tanks in the current edition...

Moving on.