Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I just picked up the new Mark II cards for both of my armies, I haven't played in a year, and I have never played under Mark II.

I have almost all the jacks except fire of salavation and blessing of menoth. And for Legion, I am missing Abyslonia? Nephlium Bodyguard, Scytheon, Ravagore, but I think I have everything else. I'm sort of looking for a starting point or if anyone has any experience with both armies under the new rule systems, which one faired better. I need two lists and I have a week and a half to figure it out.


I was thinking of running
pLylyth
Carnivean
Seraph
Shredder

and

Saeryn
Angelius
Angelius
Shredder

Unless Menoth has some thing better going on. I looked and the Protectorate Warcasters look nerfed all kinds except pKreos

I don't know anything about legion so I can't really comment on those lists.
As far as protectorate goes you have some very solid warcasters for 15 pt games an example wold be something like this.
Reznik +6
crusader or repenter 6pts
reckoner 7pts
castigator or templar 8pts
total 15 points

Or the classic kreoss pop and drop.
pkreoss +5
redeemer 6pts
redeemer 6pts
reckoner or vanquisher 8pts
total 15 points
Personally I think Reznik would be more fun but to each his own.

whitekong wrote:Personally I think Reznik would be more fun but to each his own.

That's because you're dumb

skrulnik wrote:

whitekong wrote:Personally I think Reznik would be more fun but to each his own.

That's because you're dumb

Yep like a box of hammers!

How bout this?
Reznk
reckoner
reckoner
reckoner
tier 1 15 points

Three Heavies with Guns, Assault, and reach.

Not cool man. There's no need to be mean too.

can you cram Reznik's jack in there? Or is he too pricy for 15?

skrulnik wrote:Three Heavies with Guns, Assault, and reach.

Not cool man. There's no need to be mean too.

can you cram Reznik's jack in there? Or is he too pricy for 15?

Thats me, mean and dumb!
9 points is a lot in a mangled metal game,

Reznik
scourge of heresy
crusader
crusader
15 points
Much slower list and no shooting of any kind, but it would actually hit harder in melee than the other lists I posted. I think you give up way to much versatility if you include the scourge of heresy.

Bad stuff... I dont own even one reckoner let alone 3. And I don't know how good pop n drop will be without a choir singing +2 damage songs. No choir or infantry allowed in mangled metal.

I suppose I could do a pop n drop, just to ensure I get the charge off. Then use a bunch of crusaders to mop up his mess.

And apparently I've been out of the game longer than I thought, I've never heard of the scourge of heresy, I don't think I saw its card in the MKII card set.

I feel way out of place, I just want to be competitive enough not to embarrass myself

scourge is new and releases in december. it was a prerelease at gencon and pax so some people have it already.

Well pkreoss can certainly give you an advantage by knocking stuff down, but with the new shake rules it isn't quite as powerful as it used to be. Still shaking knockdown will cause your opponent to waste his focus standing jacks back up before they activate, but they will be able to stand up and activate normally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Keep in mind I threw all the lists as examples of what you could do with protectorate, you should certainly play what you want. I do think Reznk is a solid choice for this format however, it's almost like having another heavy jack on a med base.

One of my concerns with going with redeemers (or any light jacks) is that I fully expect one opponent to bring Khador. Redeemers won't hurt the big khadorian jacks, and probably won't touch the warcaster much either unless its sorcha.

I suppose the 3 reckoners with reznik could do the trick, but I don't own even one.

pKreoss
eKreoss
Testament
Harbinger
Feora
eFeora
Reznik
2 Revengers
1 Repenter
2 Redeemers
2 Crusaders
1 Castigator
2 Avatars (dont' ask)
1 Vanquisher
1 Guardian

with Legion I have
pLlylith
eLilyth
pThagrosh
eThagrosh
Rhyas
Saeryn
Vael
4 Shredders (maybe more)
3 Harriers
2 Raek
2 Teraph
3 Seraph
2 Angelius
2 Carnivean
1 Typhon
1 Nephlium Soldier

Based on what I have, whats the best? I know Legion, I could do something like Saeryn, and 2 Angelius, and then Vael and 2 Angelius... Kinda easy, hits hard, but doesn't hit enough times.

I ended up taking Legion of Everblight.

I found that:
Saeryn
Angelius
Angelius
Shredder

Was a very good list, and let me win 3 rounds in a row,

2nd round, I went up against Legion (and I wish I had taken this following list for the first round against trolls, as I got my head cashed by Grim Angus)
eLyllth
2 Ravagores

In this game, we stayed away from each other, I flanked over to a hill and sat on it. He came a touch closer, I ran forward, popped my feat and tied him up in combat. After that I killed both Ravagores with my Angels. Game.

3rd round, was a Retribution list
Chick Warcaster, that steals fury and has true sight
Arc Node Heavy with a template gun and a str 17 sword
Heavy Warjack
Light Warjack, reach and sheild, pathfinder and 6spd

This game was the most fun, we ran around a building in the middle of the board, trying to out position each other. Eventually I beat up the heavy warjack, and caster killed with my Angelius, losing just my shredder.

My last opponent was running Amon, and 5 light warjacks. I advanced to halfway up the board, right in the center. He advanced a little, running a few jacks to different positions. I charged one Angel into combat with amon (actually it was a failed assassination run and I was 1/4" out of mellee range) but I also tied up three jacks with that angel. The other Angel and shredder charged a repenter, and failed to kill it, but ripped it up pretty good (yes... horrible dice rolls, Angel rolled decent damage on the armor piercing strike, but I missed twice after that and I didn't want to run too much fury, so I held back on wasting it all.) (not the one that I had cast respawn on either) What I am learning is that if you have a angel near their warcaster, thats the one thats needs respawn. Anyhow... he based my warcaster with a dervish, and backed amon away from my other angel. My next turn, my first angel stayed in combat, killed a devout, damaged another dervish. The other angel gave up a free strike and attacked the dervish on my warcaster from behind, and with 4 fury, and somehow missing my initial strike, i killed that dervish dead. The shredder, beat up the repenter. The Amon player backed off, and on my next turn, I went for and got the caster kill.


I had lots of fun in the 2nd through 4th rounds, the games were all tactical, and not... "I gotcha on a trick" My first round player, schooled me quite well, and was gracious enough to walk me through the changes in MK II. I brought the wrong list to have a chance to beat him, so I recognized that I just needed to be "learned like a noob".


I appreciate everyone's help. I am still not sure what I could have brought with the menoth that I own, that would have been good. I have a feeling that Kreoss + 2 Reckonners or Redeemers would have been ... just okay. Mostly it was the pure shooty lists that would be my biggest concern, and since every new warcaster in hordes and retribution has eyeless sight or something to ignore cover/concealment and stealth. I can't see how menoth could be competitive in this particular format. I think its silly that so much stuff ignores the very basic element of what makes a game tactically challenging. 3 of 4 of my games were basically just played on open battle grounds. So I guess that's my one real complaint.

I'm not a big fan of two angels in such a low point value. While Angels have a great charge attack with ArPen, they have a serious lack of staying power after their initial attack. Models on the Carnivean chassis tend to be much, much harder to kill, and with as many attacks as they have they tend to do at least as much damage as an Angel.

I appreciate everyone's help. I am still not sure what I could have brought with the menoth that I own, that would have been good. I have a feeling that Kreoss + 2 Reckonners or Redeemers would have been ... just okay. Mostly it was the pure shooty lists that would be my biggest concern, and since every new warcaster in hordes and retribution has eyeless sight or something to ignore cover/concealment and stealth. I can't see how menoth could be competitive in this particular format. I think its silly that so much stuff ignores the very basic element of what makes a game tactically challenging. 3 of 4 of my games were basically just played on open battle grounds. So I guess that's my one real complaint.

Keep in mind that Eyeless sight ignores only concealment, not cover. In fact, between the lot of them, the only abilities you'll be seeing in Ret and Everblight that will ignore cover are Phantom Seeker and sprays, respectively. By using lots of walls (which, remember, will provide cover in melee) and ruins (and, of course, obstructions), a good TO can minimize the effect of Pathfinder and Eyeless Sight to just movement and LoS aids, rather than I Win buttons.

Good insight. I forgot what eyeless sight saw through. I did not see anything in any of my games where cover was much of an issue. Either my opponents were running trolls and had cross country going, and thus ignored everything (so I was told) or no one else seemed to use walls to their advantage or had walls to use.

Angels with tenacity have plenty of staying power, the goal is to be un-hittable. I lost one angel, to Amon, a repenter and a dervish beating on it. And my first game I lost both Angels, (I had no idea what to do against the troll player) I had a failed charge, but this was after Grim, decided to knock down my first angel, and everyone shot the thing to death, took him two turns to shoot it to death, so in one respect, it was a tough beast to take down. Out of 8 chances to get my Angels killed, I lost 3. The shredder died 2 out of 8 chances. And Saeryn nor Llylyth (used once) never died.

My standard tactic, after my first round loss, was to run the Angels and Shredder into combat, pop Saeryn's feat. Turn 2, kill beasts and/or assassination run. Turn 3, do assassination run.

I am looking forward to the next tournament. I learned a lot, both about how to play, and what I should have been fielding.

Happy to see you getting back into warmachine/hoards!

I think your list was good! Was rough for my kalyssa army. But thats how it goes.

better than worrying about mangled metal, prepare for the next GK tourney at 25 points.

we can set up a game this weekend if you'd like

NaZ

Sazzlefrats wrote:
And my first game I lost both Angels, (I had no idea what to do against the troll player) I had a failed charge, but this was after Grim, decided to knock down my first angel, and everyone shot the thing to death, took him two turns to shoot it to death, so in one respect, it was a tough beast to take down.

Angelius is Serpentine/Can't be knocked down.

Revvy wrote:

Sazzlefrats wrote:
And my first game I lost both Angels, (I had no idea what to do against the troll player) I had a failed charge, but this was after Grim, decided to knock down my first angel, and everyone shot the thing to death, took him two turns to shoot it to death, so in one respect, it was a tough beast to take down.

Angelius is Serpentine/Can't be knocked down.

Ahhh pooohhh. GRRRRRR. I would have won.... hahaha... Trolls are gonna pay forever! Legion > Trolls..... I'm gonna make them suffer..


So another big lesson, I need to learn the friggn rules! OMG My own darn rules!

Thanks Revvy

If its any consolation, I lost that game today because I let someone channel a spell within 5" of e Eiryss.

know your cards. definitely going to spend time with mine

NaZ

Never played Tooth and Claw yet.. but i was looking at doing..

Abyslonia
Typhon
Raek
Raek

or

Rhyas
Raek
Raek
Raek
Raek
Raek

just assasinate with 2nd list.

Seems amusing at least :p

NaZ wrote:If its any consolation, I lost that game today because I let someone channel a spell within 5" of e Eiryss.

know your cards. definitely going to spend time with mine

NaZ

If it makes you feel any better, if your opponent knew about it, he'd have been slightly 5" away. Believe me, Sean, is very very... very good at this game, at my best, I only gave him a challenge before the inevitable happened.

The problem with spamming Raeks is that you lack any sort of ability to deal with armor. Against casters like Karchev, the Butchers, or Vlad, you'll end up watching in boredom as they single-handedly dismantle your entire army.

I'm calling that game a draw, we misplayed Witch hound too. I would have gotten like 5 move + attack from his spells that we thought were not going to trigger it.

we should hook up this weekend for a few games man!

Also the all Raek list. Its not a particular threat to a regular hordes battlegroup either. I would willingly let you beat on my Angelius all day with those Raeks. If I hit once... thats a dead dog. It looks like a lot of fun though. I could see trying it with Saeryn... pop feat, tie up everything with a dog. double team the warcaster. And these things move fast enough to do that. After that their low strength attacks, will just nickle and dime my opponent, and if they find someway around the dogs high defense, they'll die quick.