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I've been thinking about changing my Imperial Fists to Blood Angels, like they was originally. Here's a list I come up with:

Blood Angels "Razor-Spam" - 2,000 points

HQ

Librarian shield of sanguinus


Librarian shield of sanguinus

Elite

Sanguinary Priest

Sanguinary Priest

Sanguinary Priest

Troops

5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback meltagun - Razorback w/ twin-linked lascannon & hunter killer missile

5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback meltagun - Razorback w/ twin-linked lascannon & hunter killer missile

5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback meltagun - Razorback w/ twin-linked lascannon & hunter killer missile

5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback flamer - Razorback w/ twin-linked lascannon & hunter killer missile

5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback flamer - Razorback w/ twin-linked lascannon & hunter killer missile

10 x Scouts

Fast Attack

Land Speeder multi melta & heavy flamer

Land Speeder multi melta & heavy flamer

Land Speeder multi melta & heavy flamer

Heavy Support

Predator lascannons sponsons & hunter killer missile

Predator lascannons sponsons & hunter killer missile

Predator lascannons sponsons & hunter killer missile

Total: 2,000



What I've got here is 5 Razorbacks (ok not the max amount but still plenty) which each have a lascannon and hunter killer missile. Adding more ranged anti tank I've got triple auto/las Predators, two carrying hunter killer missiles due to points free. In total these gives me 8 Rhino chassis vehicles, that's a fair amount. Ranged fire power the list can kick out the following:

5 twin-linked lascannons

8 x single shot krak missiles

6 x lascannon shots

6 x autocannon shots

6 x melta shots

That's a lot of fire power for one turn of shooting, minus the hunter killers the turn(s) after. Bonus is all are fast vehicles which means they can move 6" and fire everything or move 12" and fire a single weapon, bonus.

For serious anti tank I've got triple melta Land Speeders which go for the toughest armour available or team up against a high priority threat. I've got 3 meltaguns in the Assault Squads but I have the same fears when I used to run Razorbacks before, 5 men bust a transport whatever is inside will charge them next turn - Razorback has no hatch like a Rhino :( but, I do have the ranged anti tank to back me up.

Tactics

Librarians each go in a Razorback in centre line up, or split the force, either way Librarian(s) go in the centre. They cast shield which gives the tanks a 5+ cover save. I haven't decided what other power they could take yet.

Sanguinary Priests I hear you say, in mech? Well yes because lets face it those Marines aren't going to stay in the tanks forever are they. After the tank gives a bigger foot print for the 6" FnP and F.C radius.

Assault Marines at least will move 6" or stay static depending on what army I'm against. The Razorbacks will hammer a target until it's dust and when clear the Assault Marines can bail out next turn and launch a assault, only problem is cannot assault from the Razorback so I've got to hope I'm close enough to get into the fight. With the Razorbacks being fast I can move them 18" to contest objectives later on in the game.

While the entire force is mech only the Scouts are on foot. These act as cheap objective takers on my home turf. I'll combat squad them if needed for seize ground or for capture and control keep them as is. I haven't decided what weapons I'll take, probably not shotguns though. I guess I could drop some hunter killers and get camo cloaks on these guys.

The Land Speeders are my melta suicide units. First turn I'll zoom them ahead getting a cover save from turbo boosting, I just hope that will hold out. They will go for the toughest armour or high priority target and nuke it or wound it seriously.

Predators hang back and do the anti tank business, being fast means they can relocate pretty quickly if needed too.

My only concerns with this list is the low number of bodies, 40, however this is the same number of Marines I have in my Imperial Fists list. I'm just worried that squads of 5 Marines won't last long, but I combat squad currently which means 5 Marines in a Rhino anyway.

Drop the preists and the scouts and the missles and one of the HQ options and drop the Predators to a cheaper variant, say Autocannon with Heavy Bolters. Use these points to buy more Assult Squads with Razorbacks.

Its a spam list, you need more then 5...

Priests are staying though could drop one don't think I need three.

Librarians stay because of shield - won't get all those Razorbacks in 6"!

Predators are needed for anti tank, but could drop one.

Scouts are ok for objective campers, though a cheap Assault Squad in a Razor would be cheaper than a full squad.

I could add another Razor with Honour Guard which would make 7 in total.

TBH I'm prefering the Rhino list. Got the models I have, more numbers, and I've used Razors before and they didn't work for me.

Blood angles can take the Lasscannon / Twin Linked Plasma gun turret right?

Yes they can. It's something I did and have considered. I'm probably just making things easier for myself conversion wise with straight twin linked lascannons, though las/plas is going to be the better choice.

Apart from the turret changes I'll change all meltaguns to flamers so got the anti horde, got enough anti tank.

Las/plas opetion makes the Razorback much more durable.

like with my suggestion with your rhino rush list, this one doesnt need any HK missles at all with the AT you already have. get the furioso librarian

Have you considered using Baal Predators? You have a couple of choices with them. You can set them up with Twin Linked Assault Cannons and Heavy Bolter Sponsons. They will deal with light armor and anti troop. You could also do a Flamestorm/ Heavy Bolter combo and smoke marines and some anti troop from range. Or you could go Flamestorm/flamers and use them for killing hoards. Whichever you choose you get an armor 13 front.

I use my Baals (lol) in front of my Rhinos to give a cover save to them and just roll right up the table. Also consider the Twin Linked Assault Cannons on some of your Razorbacks. That is a great option for decimating just about anything short of a Land Raider.

In my experience 2 Sanguinary Priests are more then enough. Their bubble will cover a vast area of the tabletop and remember you will only be disembarking troops to finish off what has lived through your fire. Also consider Combi-Flamers on whoever can take them. For you the candidates are your Sanguinary Priests and Librarians. Remember that your Assault Marines can take one special weapon too. I would suggest a flamer instead of the meltas.

With my Librarian I use for the other power Unleash Rage or the Sanguine Sword. The Unleash Rage give preferred enemy to the squad the sword strength 10 to the Librarian both are great for boosting the combat effectiveness of the squad. Another great way to make your assault marines punch harder is a power weapon or Fist. If you get rid of those HK Missiles you could easly equip your troops with anything you'd need. I actually would use, in your army a power weapon since most tanks will already be dead.

I do think that you will have problems with Orks as you wont be able to kill enough of them before they fist you out of your tanks. A good Tau player my wreck you before you can deliever your forces to the other side of the table. If you play another mech army I think you will prevail.

I really like your army idea and with a few changes it will wreck face even more. Don't play it against a friend, lol.

I'm leaning towards Baal Predators over the auto/las versions. You seem to be terrified of tanks with the amount of lascannons and whatnot. 5 twin-linked ones from the razorbacks and the melta-speeders should be plenty. The marines should have flamers over meltas and 2 priests would probably be enough. All that being said, it looks like a pretty solid list you should do well with it.

Its really copy and paste... It looks boring to play both with and against. You might win games, yes, but nobody is going to have fun in those games.

Heres a list that fills all the same roles as your list, but has much more variation and looks like it would be great fun to play.

Librarian
- Shield
- Sword

Honor Guard
- 4 Meltaguns
- Razorback w/ TL Assault Cannon

3 Priests
- Meltabombs

Furioso Librarian
-Wings
-Shield

5 man Assault Squad
- Meltagun
- Razorback w/ TL Lascannon

5 man Assault Squad
- Meltagun
- Razorback w/ LasPlas

5 man Assault Squad
- Flamer
- Razorback w/ TL Lascannon

5 man Assault Squad
- Flamer
- Razorback w/ LasPlas

5 man Assault Squad
- Plasmagun
- Razorback w/ TL Assault Cannon

5 man Devastator Squad
- 4 Missile Launchers
- Razorback w/ TL Heavy Bolters

5 man Devastator Squad
- 4 Missile Launchers
- Razorback w/ TL Assault Cannon


Suficiently Razorback spam (I see your 7 razorbacks and raise you 8). Plenty of anti-tank, both heavy and light. Plenty of anti-troop, both heavy and light. 2 psychic hoods. 4 points of FC & FnP. Even an increase in model count. What say you?

Your list is fast and very shooty but completely lacks any serious assault element and that's where I think you could encounter problems. Razorspam is proven but they aren't that hard to knock out. What are you planning to use as the second psychic power for your Librarians? I would go with the Sanguine Sword. You might want to drop two razorbacks and take two rhino so you can can attach an HQ and priest to assault squads. I'd find the points to kit two priests with power weapons and give the sergeants a power fist or sword. I think this would help.

Catyrpelius wrote:Las/plas opetion makes the Razorback much more durable.

Not durable, flexible, but I agree. I tried them last night and they rocked. I'm going with them.

Ztryder wrote:like with my suggestion with your rhino rush list, this one doesnt need any HK missles at all with the AT you already have. get the furioso librarian

Hunter killers work fine. Why do I need a furioso for? What's it going to do two Librarians can't do? It's a single Dreadnought on it's own which falls behind mech, bad idea.

veritechc wrote:Have you considered using Baal Predators? You have a couple of choices with them. You can set them up with Twin Linked Assault Cannons and Heavy Bolter Sponsons. They will deal with light armor and anti troop. You could also do a Flamestorm/ Heavy Bolter combo and smoke marines and some anti troop from range. Or you could go Flamestorm/flamers and use them for killing hoards. Whichever you choose you get an armor 13 front.

I use my Baals (lol) in front of my Rhinos to give a cover save to them and just roll right up the table. Also consider the Twin Linked Assault Cannons on some of your Razorbacks. That is a great option for decimating just about anything short of a Land Raider.

In my experience 2 Sanguinary Priests are more then enough. Their bubble will cover a vast area of the tabletop and remember you will only be disembarking troops to finish off what has lived through your fire. Also consider Combi-Flamers on whoever can take them. For you the candidates are your Sanguinary Priests and Librarians. Remember that your Assault Marines can take one special weapon too. I would suggest a flamer instead of the meltas.

With my Librarian I use for the other power Unleash Rage or the Sanguine Sword. The Unleash Rage give preferred enemy to the squad the sword strength 10 to the Librarian both are great for boosting the combat effectiveness of the squad. Another great way to make your assault marines punch harder is a power weapon or Fist. If you get rid of those HK Missiles you could easly equip your troops with anything you'd need. I actually would use, in your army a power weapon since most tanks will already be dead.

I do think that you will have problems with Orks as you wont be able to kill enough of them before they fist you out of your tanks. A good Tau player my wreck you before you can deliever your forces to the other side of the table. If you play another mech army I think you will prevail.

I really like your army idea and with a few changes it will wreck face even more. Don't play it against a friend, lol.

Yeah I looked at Baals but I'd take them straight out the box which is 115 points for four shots, not a lot. With all the flamers I have and plasma guns (now added las/plas Razors) I won't need it.

I tried this list last night and two Priests are definately enough. I'm dropping the third. The flamers I'm taking on all except two units (dropped Scouts got 6 las/plas units) but combi flamer no no because 10 points for single flamer shot isn't good when flamers are 5 points and I want as many attacks as possible, plus all sgts now have power weapons for when charging, I want my 5 men units to cause serious damage or stay locked in combat and make sure I win next turn.

Unleash rage I took last night and rocks. Shield is ok, saved my bacon a few times, not awesome it's just ok. I've put power weapons on all sgts because S5 I5 power weapon is cool and the two meltagun units have infernus and a power fist and thunder hammer as I had spare 5 points and hammers just look cool

I tested this last night and it worked well, against the wrong army it may fail or have a hard time but with las/plas Razorbacks and mostly flamers along with power weapons I should get by. Luckily I don't play against Tau players

Thanks for your useful advice

ghastli wrote:I'm leaning towards Baal Predators over the auto/las versions. You seem to be terrified of tanks with the amount of lascannons and whatnot. 5 twin-linked ones from the razorbacks and the melta-speeders should be plenty. The marines should have flamers over meltas and 2 priests would probably be enough. All that being said, it looks like a pretty solid list you should do well with it.

Baal Preds would be ok but I need the multi melta from the Speeders. I'm not terrified of tanks, no idea how you got that impression. I'm taking flamers in all units except 2 as I need melta and I'm taking 2 Priests because 3 I just don't need. Just needs a few more tweaks.

Caboose wrote:Its really copy and paste... It looks boring to play both with and against. You might win games, yes, but nobody is going to have fun in those games.

Heres a list that fills all the same roles as your list, but has much more variation and looks like it would be great fun to play.

Librarian
- Shield
- Sword

Honor Guard
- 4 Meltaguns
- Razorback w/ TL Assault Cannon

3 Priests
- Meltabombs

Furioso Librarian
-Wings
-Shield

5 man Assault Squad
- Meltagun
- Razorback w/ TL Lascannon

5 man Assault Squad
- Meltagun
- Razorback w/ LasPlas

5 man Assault Squad
- Flamer
- Razorback w/ TL Lascannon

5 man Assault Squad
- Flamer
- Razorback w/ LasPlas

5 man Assault Squad
- Plasmagun
- Razorback w/ TL Assault Cannon

5 man Devastator Squad
- 4 Missile Launchers
- Razorback w/ TL Heavy Bolters

5 man Devastator Squad
- 4 Missile Launchers
- Razorback w/ TL Assault Cannon


Suficiently Razorback spam (I see your 7 razorbacks and raise you 8). Plenty of anti-tank, both heavy and light. Plenty of anti-troop, both heavy and light. 2 psychic hoods. 4 points of FC & FnP. Even an increase in model count. What say you?

It may be boring ot you but not to me or people I play against, it's a challenge to beat which makes it interesting.

With your list you've lost me a valuable Librarian which gives shield and unleash rage to more units instead of one. A Honour Guard with another Priest which I do not need. I don't need 3 Priests, only two. Furioso Dreadnought does not fit this list at all. I've lost fire power from the Razorbacks, I'm now taking las/plas btw. Only thing I've thought about is the Devs with missile launchers.

Your list should be all las/plas minus Honour Guard as not really needed, minus a Priest, minus Furioso. Like the Devs though.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Your list is fast and very shooty but completely lacks any serious assault element and that's where I think you could encounter problems. Razorspam is proven but they aren't that hard to knock out. What are you planning to use as the second psychic power for your Librarians? I would go with the Sanguine Sword. You might want to drop two razorbacks and take two rhino so you can can attach an HQ and priest to assault squads. I'd find the points to kit two priests with power weapons and give the sergeants a power fist or sword. I think this would help.

Assault element? Did you miss Assault Marines? Ok not massive units and not super duper but still assault. What I've done is shifted things around and added power weapons along with a power fist and thunder hammer. Though I totally agree, Razors aren't hard to take out, that's why I've got shield but it's not a major life support.

I'll be taking unleash rage. I took it last night and it kicked arse, especially with a Priest.

What's the point taking Rhinos? I'll be making target priority easier then, as long as the Priest is within 6" all will be ok.

Power weaps as mentioned is def the way I'm going

Here's a updated list:

Blood Angels "Wing Striker" - 2,000 points

HQ

Librarian shield of sanguinus & unleash rage
Librarian shield of sanguinus & unleash rage

Elite

Sanguinary Priest
Sanguinary Priest

Troops

5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback flamer - sgt w/ power weapon - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasma gun & hunter killer missile
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback flamer - sgt w/ power weapon - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasma gun & hunter killer missile
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback flamer - sgt w/ power weapon - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasma gun & hunter killer missile
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback flamer - sgt w/ power weapon - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasma gun & hunter killer missile
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback meltagun - sgt w/ infernus pistol & power fist - Razorback w/ lascannon, twin-linked plasma gun & hunter killer missile
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback meltagun - sgt w/ infernus pistol & thunder hammer - Razorback w/ lascannon, twin-linked plasma gun & hunter killer missile

Fast Attack

Land Speeder multi melta
Land Speeder multi melta

Heavy Support

Predator lascannon sponsons
Predator lascannon sponsons
Predator lascannon sponsons

Total: 2,000



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a slight update with idea taken from Caboose.

This list still gives me two Priests, but gives me a extra tank and better melta weapons. I've added power fists on the two melta units but I'd really prefer that 3rd Priest. Admittly I didn't need three Priests yesterday, I'm just worried that the Honour Guard Priest can manage three units or I need to keep things pretty close.

Here's the new list:

HQ

Librarian shield of sanguinus & unleash rage
Librarian shield of sanguinus & unleash rage
Honour Guard w/ Razorback 2 x meltaguns - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasma gun

Sanguinary Priest

5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback 1 x meltagun - sgt w/ power fist - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback 1 x meltagun - sgt w/ power fist - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback 1 x flamer - sgt w/ power weapon - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback 1 x flamer - sgt w/ power weapon - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback 1 x flamer - sgt w/ power weapon - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback 1 x flamer - sgt w/ power weapon - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun

Land Speeder multi melta
Land Speeder multi melta

Predator lascannons sponsons
Predator lascannons sponsons
Predator lascannons sponsons

total: 2,000

You're spending so many points on Hunter Killers... for what? Single shot Krak Missiles really are not that amazing.

I also don't think you need to be spending the points on a power weapon in every single one of those Razorback squads. 15 points per unit adds up very quickly. Maybe keep 1-2 of them if you want but your PF/TH Sarges should provide all the counter assault you need. This might be more personal preference than anything but when I'm running a list like this I'm moving around and shooting rather than trying to set up charges. I don't hit anything in combat unless I can deal with it pretty safely since units of 5 marines are not durable or killy (even if they're assault marines). The Power Weapon + FC helps this, but I don't think it will make a large enough impact to really swing difficult combats in your favor. Most of the time you're either charging a unit you'll beat anyway, or you're staring down a unit that will kill you in combat. I think your PF/TH units provide enough counter-charge punch to get rid of those power weapons. You've also got UR + the Librarian's attacks when needed.

Dropping the Hunter Killers and Power Weapons nets you 150 points. That is quite a bit of points to be spending on marginally useful equipment and/or one use only weapons.

Unleash Rage is really good. It can be awkward when the Priest also has Shield though as you can't cast both in the same turn (only relevant if you get charged though). I'm not saying drop it, just be ready for a frustrating interaction with it sometimes. UR is my favorite psychic power in the BA codex. It makes Assault Marines go from decent to pretty damn good and it comes free when you buy your obligatory psychic hood!

These lists are so incredibly straight forward and obvious that once it gets to a point it is really just silly nit picking about personal preferences. You don't have to make a single change from the ones I mentioned above and you probably won't really suffer from it. The archetype that your list follows is simply beaten to death and once you get the basic structure and tactics down you're well on your way.

Caffran I've put up a new list which will answer some of your questions/statements in a way. Though I guess you seen the new list because of the power weapons comment...

15 points can add up, I agree. Thing is I've got small squads which I'm striking first so I want to make sure I get the most out of my attacks - so no mass fists or hammers because I want to use I5, get more attacks and S5 is ok when charging. I also want to make sure I kill as many as possible, sgts will be hitting on 3+ and wounding on 3+ probably with re-roll to hit thanks to the Librarian.

Power fists added on new list, but only in melta units.

Unleash rage is cast in the assault phase, shield in the shooting phase so done differently, but still counts as two powers. I'll use shield when inside transports and unleash rage when out.

The list is pretty simple, I'll agree with you on that one. It's not fancy, just brings loads of fire power with some cool benefits i.e cover saves, re-roll to hit in combat, furious charge and feel no pain.

The LasPlas is actually more durable than the TL Las RB since the LasPlas can suffer two weapon destroyed results as oppsed to 1 for the TL LC RB

What are the Priests good for?
Boosting five men Assault squads? Its not going to work.

wuestenfux wrote:What are the Priests good for?
Boosting five men Assault squads? Its not going to work.

I would argue that the Sanguinary Priests the single most important unit in a razorback spam list.

Remember that the priests confer furious charge and feel no pain to everyone in a 6" radius. That is measured from the tank he is in. What I do is keep him in his razorback and use him to support all the squads that are assaulting. He can also be used to provide vita feel no pain to a unit that has been blown out of their Razorback.

I think what many have forgotten is that this list requires you to stay in your tank, until you have smoked the enemy out of theirs. Once that happens your best unit is those 6 men in the Razorback to eat through the enemies troops. Having I5, S5 and Feel no pain just makes that 6 man squad into more like 10.

When I play this list I put my Librarian and Priests in a squad in the Razorback then keep them together. The Librarian's squad can use Unleash Rage and if the priest is nearby they have in total: S5, I5, re-roll to hit and Feel no pain. Armed with power weapons and that is probably going to kill most squads of lower initiative.

@mercer, I will be trying out Las/plas. Sounds to me like you are killing 3 targets a turn against infantry. I usually load out Assault Cannons. Most of the time I am killing 3 a turn anyway.

tedurur wrote: The LasPlas is actually more durable than the TL Las RB since the LasPlas can suffer two weapon destroyed results as oppsed to 1 for the TL LC RB

Is this true? Is it two separate weapons or is the mount destroyed on a hit? I know on a Soul Grinder (forgive but I did two painful years as a Deamon player) one weapon destroyed both of his weapons that came from his maw.

I would argue that the Sanguinary Priests the single most important unit in a razorback spam list.

Remember that the priests confer furious charge and feel no pain to everyone in a 6" radius. That is measured from the tank he is in. What I do is keep him in his razorback and use him to support all the squads that are assaulting. He can also be used to provide vita feel no pain to a unit that has been blown out of their Razorback.

Furious charge or FNP for a 5 men Assault squad?
Those units are too small to benefit from it.

veritechc wrote:

tedurur wrote: The LasPlas is actually more durable than the TL Las RB since the LasPlas can suffer two weapon destroyed results as oppsed to 1 for the TL LC RB

Is this true? Is it two separate weapons or is the mount destroyed on a hit? I know on a Soul Grinder (forgive but I did two painful years as a Deamon player) one weapon destroyed both of his weapons that came from his maw.

Yeah, the lascannon and the TL PG is two separate weapons.

wuestenfux wrote:

I would argue that the Sanguinary Priests the single most important unit in a razorback spam list.

Remember that the priests confer furious charge and feel no pain to everyone in a 6" radius. That is measured from the tank he is in. What I do is keep him in his razorback and use him to support all the squads that are assaulting. He can also be used to provide vita feel no pain to a unit that has been blown out of their Razorback.

Furious charge or FNP for a 5 men Assault squad?
Those units are too small to benefit from it.

What nonsens

wuestenfux wrote:

I would argue that the Sanguinary Priests the single most important unit in a razorback spam list.

Remember that the priests confer furious charge and feel no pain to everyone in a 6" radius. That is measured from the tank he is in. What I do is keep him in his razorback and use him to support all the squads that are assaulting. He can also be used to provide vita feel no pain to a unit that has been blown out of their Razorback.

Furious charge or FNP for a 5 men Assault squad?
Those units are too small to benefit from it.

When those 5 man squads get popped out the transports they won't last 5 minutes. FnP is essential and furious charge rocks in any Angels list.