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They are virtually identical, and the HE have a serious lack of core units as it is... spearmen or archers or archerspearmen... yay

What's the reasoning?

I think it might be because of the old rules where HE could take more special choices, it wasn't much of a problem then (im presuming) but now i have to agree with you that it is a bit annoying.

My guess - because they felt like it?

The other possible reasoning may just be because most of the HE special choices hail from specific regions of Ulthuan so they felt compelled to try to limit them in that respect. Granted, for this same reason, they should've left Silver Helms in Core, but they'd really wanted to avoid the All-Cav High Elf lists of 6th Ed.

In a similar vein, I don't think Dark Riders are quite as restricted to domains of Dark Elf lands as their Asur equivalents.

The DE book is the same edition as the last HE book, where HE had Silver Helms as a core choice. So there was a bit more parity there.

Interesting question.

Answer: - The High Elf army book was written during 7th edition and at the time it was released, the High Elves were only required to field Two Core units in 7th edition standard size games (2000pts - 2250pts). In addition, the prior High Elf book encouraged HE players to field all cavalry armies as Silver Helms were Core in the priior book. The designers wanted to put the most common HE units in the background (archers and spearmen) back on the tabletops so they only left infantry in Core and had no intention of including Cav units.

In context of 8th edition, this penalizes the High Elves but when the 7th edition book was released it was also used as a balancing mechanism to balance out the increased number of special choices they could take.

Do you want to take more ellyrian reavers? I didn't think that were that good?

I'm trying to think of the role they fill (charge-baiting / fleeing, and warmachine hunting?). Although it seems like an eagle can do the latter well enough, too.

Agree with the above about the army book moving away from cavalry as core...

Do you want to take more ellyrian reavers? I didn't think that were that good?

I'm trying to think of the role they fill (charge-baiting / fleeing, and warmachine hunting?). Although it seems like an eagle can do the latter well enough, too.

If they were core, I'd have enough models to play at 2500 pts in 8th edition, instead of struggling to meet 2000 pts.

Seriously, I was just comparing the variety of core units in HE vs other armies and noticed the disparity.

Jeep wrote:

Do you want to take more ellyrian reavers? I didn't think that were that good?

I'm trying to think of the role they fill (charge-baiting / fleeing, and warmachine hunting?). Although it seems like an eagle can do the latter well enough, too.

If they were core, I'd have enough models to play at 2500 pts in 8th edition, instead of struggling to meet 2000 pts.

Seriously, I was just comparing the variety of core units in HE vs other armies and noticed the disparity.

Which is really sad, because fluff wise the Spearmen and Archers are supposed to make up the core of a High Elf army.

I'd like to point out the following;

Purportedly, the IoB boxed set contains an invalid High Elf army using the included models.
- The Griffon is too expensive for the points level.
- The SeaGuard are too small to satisfy the points requirement for core.

I believe this is indicative of a change to the High Elf army book when it is re-released that the Ellyrian Reavers will be return to a Core choice.
(that, or swordmasters will)

In_Theory wrote:I'd like to point out the following;

Purportedly, the IoB boxed set contains an invalid High Elf army using the included models.
- The Griffon is too expensive for the points level.
- The SeaGuard are too small to satisfy the points requirement for core.

I believe this is indicative of a change to the High Elf army book when it is re-released that the Ellyrian Reavers will be return to a Core choice.
(that, or swordmasters will)

And I'd like to point out that's a ridiculous statement to make.

Island of Blood isn't supposed to be "a High Elf army in a box". It's fighting out a "historical" battle, where these forces were present.

Force Organization Chart need not apply.

It is still poor practice to sell a "starter" kit that doesn't even follow the rules provided for the game system. It's not like the IoB booklet says "OMG NOT A VALID LIST SO DON"T BOTHER TRYING TO PLAY ANYTHING BESIDES ISLAND OF BLOOD BATTLES".

djones520 wrote:
Which is really sad, because fluff wise the Spearmen and Archers are supposed to make up the core of a High Elf army.

Well true, but are Harpies supposed to be the core of a DE army, or dryads Wood Elves? If we're going for historical accuracy, the majority of the Brettonian army should be peasants, etc... If we're going for balance or fun, we shouldn't be forced to take a ton of boring unit choices just so GW can sell more models.

Jeep wrote:They are virtually identical, and the HE have a serious lack of core units as it is... spearmen or archers or archerspearmen... yay

What's the reasoning?

So what, you always strike first! Really! You are gonna complain about this? Against my dark elves you always strike first. I think now even your two handed units strike before my spear men...huh? We are both elves right?. Know what dark elf units get....always strike last with our heavy two handed units.

High elves have been a premier army in TWO fantasy releases, meaning cheap armies of miniatures and lots of rule and white dwarf support. My dark elves rarely get any studio love, I'm gonna have to buy some of these new dark eldar to field and cool looking units of dark elves.

aerethan wrote:It is still poor practice to sell a "starter" kit that doesn't even follow the rules provided for the game system. It's not like the IoB booklet says "OMG NOT A VALID LIST SO DON"T BOTHER TRYING TO PLAY ANYTHING BESIDES ISLAND OF BLOOD BATTLES".

Uh no, it really isn't poor practice to sell a starter kit which includes one of pretty much everything you'd encounter in the rules.

Monstrous creatures, flyers, cavalry, mages, infantry, "elite" infantry, warmachines, et all.

That's the point of it. Not to "get you started" in building a competitive tournament army.

Andrew1975 wrote:So what, you always strike first! Really! You are gonna complain about this? Against my dark elves you always strike first. I think now even your two handed units strike before my spear men...huh?

Yes, they do strike first. This is nice, but it isn't as though Dark Elves get no advantages of their own. If you look back over 7th ed you'll see Dark Elves were consistently ranked top tier, while High Elves were not.

We are both elves right?.

Correct, you are both elves. But elves take on the properties of the place they inhabit - and this why High Elves, Wood Elves and Dark Elves all have distinct rules.

So a legal list makes for a competitive tournie list? I'm not saying competitive, I'm saying legal by THEIR OWN RULES.

And they could have easily made it a great eagle instead. Would have at least been a useful model then.

And they list it as "getting started" on their own store, so yes it is a starter set. And adding in a few more core troops instead of god awful fast cav wouldn't have hurt.

Disclaimer: I am not a fan of GW pricing, and am not trying to verify their business practices.

GW is a business, and its goal is to sell models, and make money. Therefore their "starter" will include everything that is needed to cover the basic rules - not necessarily start a new army. That is why they don't include the army book or equal points for both sides.

I also doubt that we will see that plastic griffin, archmage, engineer or the majority of the those models in their own unique box's. GW made the models and then put them in the start to make it unique and to make people buy more of them.

What would have made the starter set absolutely, unbelievably awesome would have been to include 10 more sea guard. Unfortunately it just didn't happen :-/

I see where you're coming from now on the core! People who are buying IoB could indeed benefit from having ellyrian reavers as core, even though it's not a super-effective unit choice. That might not be a bad house-rule to use with the gamers you regularly play with until you get more models!

sebster wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:So what, you always strike first! Really! You are gonna complain about this? Against my dark elves you always strike first. I think now even your two handed units strike before my spear men...huh?

Yes, they do strike first. This is nice, but it isn't as though Dark Elves get no advantages of their own. If you look back over 7th ed you'll see Dark Elves were consistently ranked top tier, while High Elves were not.

Of course, in 8E the changes to ASF have reversed that... Now not only do you get to go first all the time, you also get to reroll misses almost all the time, against almost any opponent, for as many rounds of combat as it goes. You effectively have Eternal Hatred vs. Everyone, whereas we only get Eternal Hatred vs... you.

So, how does it feel to Hate everyone even more that your 'evil' subrace?

As a point of note, re: HE vs DE in 8th discussion -

While I understand the DE players' complaints about the power bump given to HEs in 8th edition, I'd like to make this point:

*Dark Elf units are STILL always several points cheaper than their High Elf counterparts.

*Dark Elf heroes STILL deal out a lot more damage than their High Elf counterparts.

*Dark Elves have benefited from the Init-based system quite a bit given elven naturally high I characteristics. Meaning, most of the time, you guys are 'effectively' getting ASF and striking first.

*Dark Elves still have access to one of the more powerful monsters out there.

Dark Elf hatas gonna hate.

As a person who has both armies, it is much harder to cap out core for HE and I find it is harder to choose specials for DE.

DE not only have the better core choices, but their RXB's are just fine as melee infantry as well and HE archers are not. This is a HUGE advantage IMO.

what makes DE repeater crossbow units good in cc aside from a good stand and shoot (btw I am not saying your wrong but actually just curious to what makes them good in cc)

5+sv, 6+ shield ward, Ws 4 I 4 on a ranged unit that you are already guaranteed to be taking. They are basically Empire swordsmen with RXB's. Compare to HE archers who have no save and lesser ranged weapons.

I5, actually, and for the same price as the High Elf Archers.

Will likely get to hit first and gets to re-roll To Hit rolls first round. Deadly Stand-and-Shoot reaction.

Ah thats pretty cool for missile troops... Uh I mean Damn you druchii scum you shall never reclaim sacred ulthuan (unless your repeater crossbows start to cc our archers)

Jin wrote:As a point of note, re: HE vs DE in 8th discussion -

While I understand the DE players' complaints about the power bump given to HEs in 8th edition, I'd like to make this point:

*Dark Elf units are STILL always several points cheaper than their High Elf counterparts.

*Dark Elf heroes STILL deal out a lot more damage than their High Elf counterparts.

*Dark Elves have benefited from the Init-based system quite a bit given elven naturally high I characteristics. Meaning, most of the time, you guys are 'effectively' getting ASF and striking first.

*Dark Elves still have access to one of the more powerful monsters out there.

Okay, good points all.

*Dark Elf units are STILL always several points cheaper than their High Elf counterparts.

Core wise, DE core is brilliant.
Special wise, DE special is pathetic.
You might be more expensive, but you deal ALOT more damage or have superior defense (looking at you phoenix guard >:O)


*Dark Elf heroes STILL deal out a lot more damage than their High Elf counterparts.

How, when you can take great weapons at no penalty?
We're both still Str 4 with the same attacks. You just go first.
25pt for crimson death to make me str 6.
Significantly less points to make you str 6 and still have 25pts for other magic items.

*Dark Elves have benefited from the Init-based system quite a bit given elven naturally high I characteristics. Meaning, most of the time, you guys are 'effectively' getting ASF and striking first.

You gain 'eternal' hatred and Still go first. so you still benefit greatly. especially with the amount of stubborn going around.
We only go first against the slower races, and only re-roll the first turn, not all of them.

*Dark Elves still have access to one of the more powerful monsters out there.

this is the only point no one can deny.
But dishing out £70 to piss off my friends just isnt good with me so i dont own any ^_^

Eitherway I don't care too much because DE magic is Absolutely amazing. Even with all the HE shenangians. Morathi <3

But as too the original question.

Why not just buy more phoenix guard, You can't lose with them

Vulcan wrote:Of course, in 8E the changes to ASF have reversed that... Now not only do you get to go first all the time, you also get to reroll misses almost all the time, against almost any opponent, for as many rounds of combat as it goes. You effectively have Eternal Hatred vs. Everyone, whereas we only get Eternal Hatred vs... you.

Yes, the High Elves get a special rule that is pretty good. They pay for this, they can fork out 15 points a model for guys with T3. Meanwhile, the Dark Elves get all manner of advantages of their own.

Simply pointing out a special rule and using that to talk about how effective an army is doesn't make a lot of sense. It needs to be considered in the context of the rest of that army, and the full capabiliies of other armies.

So, how does it feel to Hate everyone even more that your 'evil' subrace?

I'm not a High Elf player. Allowing re-rolls for hatred for for superhuman skill might have the same effect, but it represents two very different things.

sebster wrote:

So, how does it feel to Hate everyone even more that your 'evil' subrace?

I'm not a High Elf player. Allowing re-rolls for hatred for for superhuman skill might have the same effect, but it represents two very different things.

Bottom line, it does the same thing. It's really useful for us High elf players as well.