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I am playing Death Korps of Krieg undeer the Imperial Guard codex, but am I able to use their rules in Imperial Armor - The Seige of Vraks, or would I need the okay from my opponet.

That gets blurry.

Mostly because IA says it is ok to use, but the main rules say to use the main rules and a codex.

It is using an expansion, so is not really normal 40k. But it is not really a different game.

So it is more a matter of information than permission, generally speaking.

RAW it's not useable, as it's not a Codex. For tournaments check (they usually say which books are legal), for pick-up games ask people what they think. In my experience people don't mind you using minor IA special rules with a legit army, but are going to balk if you try to show up with plastic cup proxies for the most abusive units you can find. And don't try to bring a super heavy tank to a normal game, that will get people off of allowing IA real quick. (A smallish-game with a super-heavy can be fun, but the other guy needs an appropriate list, and the game will be about the super-heavy).

RAW it is legal, as it states it is (and is a citadel publiscation)

However in pick up games, as most people arent familiar, it is courtesy to ask - ideally ahead of time. Dont expect people to say yes, as it is a social contract

In tournaments it is whatever the tournament says.

nosferatu1001 wrote:RAW it is legal, as it states it is (and is a citadel publiscation)

The 40k rules explicitly state that you pick your units from a CODEX. IA is not a codex, therefore it's not legal to pick units from it for a 40k game. RAW is very simple on this topic.

If you're going to try to sneak super-heavy units into a regular game, be prepared for the opponent to go strict RAW on you, and that's usually what ends up being involved in an 'is IA legal' discussion. Either you go by 'reasonable agreement', in which case you check about using variant rules with your group, or you go by RAW, in which case you select units from a Codex, so can't use anything from IA.

I tend to use a lot of IA rules. In my experience, if you have the models and the rules and you take a little time to explain the differences before-hand most people are okay with it.

What people don't like is to have you springing special rules on them.


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BearersOfSalvation wrote:If you're going to try to sneak super-heavy units into a regular game, be prepared for the opponent to go strict RAW on you,

Imperial Armour doesn't let you take superheavies in 40K - super heavy vehicles are classified as "war machines". A normal 40K force org doesn't have any warmachine slots.

Scott-S6 wrote:Imperial Armour doesn't let you take superheavies in 40K - super heavy vehicles are classified as "war machines". A normal 40K force org doesn't have any warmachine slots.

That's not why I've heard IA rules related by other people - according to them, you can take a war machine using an entire force org chart, and you can take a second force org chart in some point value of games if you fill the HQ and 2 troops requirement on your first. It doesn't really matter anyway, strict RAW doesn't allow units to be selected from something that is not a Codex.

This is the real problem with IA rules - since most people are unfamiliar with them, some people take advantage of that.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:That's not why I've heard IA rules related by other people - according to them, you can take a war machine using an entire force org chart, and you can take a second force org chart in some point value of games if you fill the HQ and 2 troops requirement on your first.

Taking a second FoC requires the agreement of both players to play a multiple detachment game. The standard game of 40K uses a single FoC for each player. This is covered on page 87 of the rulebook: 'Multiple Detachment Games'

BoS - and the IA books contain a specific rule allowing you to pick units from their book in a normal game of WH40k.

Specific > General.

IF you hadnt removed the second part you would have seen I had already accounted for people not knowing about IA, and what you should do in those situations.

Cool.

I'll be using the units from the CC Services books as they contain the exact same specific rule.

Yes, Nos, we will never agree on this.

CC Services? Is that a GW publications written by GW Staff members stating it can be used with GW games?

Does it matter? It is publications, from outside of GW that states that the units within can be used in regular 40k.

Just like Forgeworld is.

Actually, there is an opinion from Imerial Armour about this. In IA Apocalypse on the second page of the introduction they tell us what is official and what is not: Codexes and the rulebook are official. Everything else is up to the players to decide for each game.

So just because a book tells us that it is an expansion for warhammer 40k, that doesnt mean that they recognize it as part of the official rules for 40k.

Everything else is up for the players to decide, but are by no means official. So if you want to use something from IA that isnt in the codex or the BRB you do need to clear it with your opponent. Usually the best method is to ask in general if its ok to use the IA units/ list...and make it VERY clear if you are talking about normal units or super heavies. Few people will want to be surprised with a super heavy or two when they were expecting more normal units.


Sliggoth

Steelmage99 wrote:Does it matter? It is publications, from outside of GW that states that the units within can be used in regular 40k.

Just like Forgeworld is.

Ah, that would be Forgeworld wholly owned by CItadel Miniatures, or "GW", and the books and material are published by Citadel Miniatures then?

Good going there. It is not "outside of GW" it is 100% internal to GW.

Steelmage99 wrote:Does it matter? It is publications, from outside of GW that states that the units within can be used in regular 40k.
Just like Forgeworld is.

Are the CC Services books marked with the warhammer 40,000 expansion logo? With permission from Games Workshop to do so? And with a GW logo?

Sliggoth wrote:Actually, there is an opinion from Imerial Armour about this. In IA Apocalypse on the second page of the introduction they tell us what is official and what is not: Codexes and the rulebook are official. Everything else is up to the players to decide for each game.

The pre-face also says that IAA1 is just as official as Cities of Death. IAA1 is also the first IA book to formally remove the opponent's consent requirement.

nosferatu1001 wrote:BoS - and the IA books contain a specific rule allowing you to pick units from their book in a normal game of WH40k.

Anyone can write a rule saying 'oh yeah you have to let me use this', it doesn't matter. Rules say you pick units from a Codex, so you pick units from a codex or you're playing with house rules. go ahead and try to spring an armored company or super-heavy vehicle on an unsuspecting player if you want, but by RAW he doesn't have to allow it.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:Anyone can write a rule saying 'oh yeah you have to let me use this', it doesn't matter.

It's a bit different when that rule is in a book with both the GW and 40K logos on.

Or are you saying that planetstrike isn't official then? Or the eldar nightspinner?

BearersOfSalvation wrote:Rules say you pick units from a Codex, so you pick units from a codex or you're playing with house rules.

Do you want to quote a section of the rules where it mandates that codexes are the only source of army lists or units?
"...pick their forces. The best way to do this is to use the relevant Codex book for each army." P86

And, just to repeat, IA does not let you take superheavy vehicles in normal 40K games. You would need to agree to have two force org charts each (which is 100% optional). So you could have a super heavy tank but I'd get six heavy support, six fast attack, etc. And armoured companies are rubbish.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:BoS - and the IA books contain a specific rule allowing you to pick units from their book in a normal game of WH40k.

Anyone can write a rule saying 'oh yeah you have to let me use this', it doesn't matter. Rules say you pick units from a Codex, so you pick units from a codex or you're playing with house rules. go ahead and try to spring an armored company or super-heavy vehicle on an unsuspecting player if you want, but by RAW he doesn't have to allow it.

I repeat: my FIRST answer already took this into account, and yet again your quote removes this reminder. You are also ignoring, despite being told AT LEAST twice now, that IA doesnt permit SH in normal games. Not only does this not help your point, it makes you look obtuse.

When the "anyone" is CITADEL MINIATURES, the people who own and operate GW, this is a little different, dont you think? What part of "wholly owned by CM" are you finding difficulty with?

This is not PP saying you can use it
Its not wrackham

It's GW. GW. GW all the way.

Well, as I pointed out at least one IA book (IA Apocalypse...which does have the warhammer 40k expansion symbol) is saying that only the codexes and the BRB are official; they at IA do not themselves consider the IA book to be "official". So according to IA as of October 2007 their books arent official.

All this really means is that one should always mention to your opponent before the game that you are using an army with IA units, if you also mention that you arent using any super heavies but only other variant units there really shouldnt be any cause for concern. A super heavy unit can easily skew an entire game but there is very little else in IA that will have that same effect.

Tournement games in general are not going to allow IA rules or units; but on the other hand casual games are always really a matter of two opponents agreeing to play each other so its always a good idea to talk things over a bit in casual games.



Sliggoth

nosferatu1001 wrote:When the "anyone" is CITADEL MINIATURES, the people who own and operate GW, this is a little different, dont you think?

As a minor nitpick, you have that backwards. 'Citadel Miniatures' was a miniatures company set up originally with funding from Games Workshop, and eventually absorbed into GW. They do not own, and have never owned, Games Workshop.

For the rest of this mess, this is a frequent topic of discussion, and pretty much always ends the same way, with people yelling at each other over differing opinions as to what constitutes official rules.

In practice, what you can use is entirely at the discretion of the event organiser (in the case of official play) or you and your opponent (in the case of casual play).


I'm going to go ahead and lock this one before it spirals any further.