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Hi all.

I was under the impression that you couldn't ram for a strength hit greater than ten... but recently in a game:

An eldar player used star engines on one of his vehicles, moved 36", and got a strength 14 hit on one of my vehicles, which I kind of contested, but after going through the rule book, I couldn't find anything against it.

The rules that says a characteristic (strength for example) can only be between 0 and 10, except for vehicles.


Is it completely legal to get a strength hit ramming higher than 10? Or am I missing something?

No base ramming can be over S 10; this is because the Ram calculates a strength; and strength is a characteristic, and no Characteristic can go above 10(excepting attacks).


I know the ram rules do not use the term characteristic; only "strength of the hit" But if that Strength is not a Strength characteristic then we have no possibility to do any damage via a ram(hint: both Close combat and Shooting attacks use a Strength characteristic; the Shooting rules specify that a ranged weapon's Strength value is a characteristic).

Hmmm I'm not entirely sure.

On the one hand "For all models except vehicles these characteristics are given a value on a scale of 0 to 10" and then "certain pieces of wargear or special rules may modify a model's characteristics... however no modifier may raise any characteristic above 10 or lower it below 0" are two distinctly seperate rules, I would argue that the latter rule would still apply to vehicles, and in fact, we can perhaps support this through the fact DCCWs only go up to S10 (although that is a specifically stated clause in the DCCW rules, it simply suggests vehicles still follow the rule), however, given the context of a reference to a "model's characteristics" I would argue that it only applies to the statline of a model, not any occurence of a characteristic.

The reason Armour Value would be exempt is because it's not one of the specified characteristics on page 6.

On the flip side though, you aren't modifying a model's characteristics at all, you are simply told that each vehicle suffers a hit with the Strength of said hit calculated by certain values of the ram, since the vehicle's Strength isn't changing, there's no reason to apply the rules that limit modifiers for a model.

I would go with a Ram's Strength can go as high as it wants, however, a vehicle's statline (other than Armour Values) is limited to 10 just like any other models.

The main rule book FAQ addresses this.

"Q. Can a ramming vehicle’s Strength go above
10?
A. No, only a vehicle’s armour value makes
exception to the ‘Maximum 10’ rule for
characteristics."

Arschbombe wrote:The main rule book FAQ addresses this.

"Q. Can a ramming vehicle’s Strength go above
10?
A. No, only a vehicle’s armour value makes
exception to the ‘Maximum 10’ rule for
characteristics."

But what about the ram itself?

Well I guess that solves it then.

The ram itself has no armor value, which is the only thing that can go over 10.

In addition, star engines are a separate move that happens in the shooting phase.......... Since Tank Shock/Ramming only replaces normal movement, the Star Engines movement is not eligible for ramming.

The rule clearly states, "except for vehicles." Not, "except for vehicle armor values." I just hope my opponent will accept an FAQ...


Star engines are shooting phase... hmmm... either way, he could have still got off a strength 11 hit or so.

Oh well, thanks for the help.

The Bringer wrote:Could I interject and say that the FAQ that GW did would have to be an Errata for me to accept it?

The rule clearly states, "except for vehicles." Not, "except for vehicle armor values." I just hope my opponent will accept an FAQ...


Star engines are shooting phase... hmmm... either way, he could have still got off a strength 11 hit or so.

For the purposes of YMDC GW FAQs are jsut as good as the BRB. It's a document from the maker of the game on how to play the game, kinda silly not to use them

BlueDagger wrote:For the purposes of YMDC GW FAQs are jsut as good as the BRB. It's a document from the maker of the game on how to play the game, kinda silly not to use them

While I agree with this statement, are you trying to bait Gwar?

Homer

Gwar needs a snack every now and then

Drunkspleen wrote:Hmmm I'm not entirely sure.

On the one hand "For all models except vehicles these characteristics are given a value on a scale of 0 to 10" and then "certain pieces of wargear or special rules may modify a model's characteristics... however no modifier may raise any characteristic above 10 or lower it below 0" are two distinctly seperate rules, I would argue that the latter rule would still apply to vehicles, and in fact, we can perhaps support this through the fact DCCWs only go up to S10 (although that is a specifically stated clause in the DCCW rules, it simply suggests vehicles still follow the rule), however, given the context of a reference to a "model's characteristics" I would argue that it only applies to the statline of a model, not any occurence of a characteristic.

The reason Armour Value would be exempt is because it's not one of the specified characteristics on page 6.

On the flip side though, you aren't modifying a model's characteristics at all, you are simply told that each vehicle suffers a hit with the Strength of said hit calculated by certain values of the ram, since the vehicle's Strength isn't changing, there's no reason to apply the rules that limit modifiers for a model.

I would go with a Ram's Strength can go as high as it wants, however, a vehicle's statline (other than Armour Values) is limited to 10 just like any other models.

Interesting take, but, if you check the index in the back of the BRB, there are exactly two references to defining strength, one in characteristics, and one in weapons. The importance of this? both definitions define strength as a characteristic; therefore, using the second rule which limits the modification of any characteristic above 10 or below zero. The logical RAW conclusion to the answer is that a ram as strength in 40k is in all cases defined as a characteristic cannot be raised above a maximum value of 10.

To further clarify, the method of determining strength on a ram is a series of modifiers entered into a sum, therefore further reinforcing this viewpoint.

Well if the FAQ says it's capped at 10, then it's capped at 10. Without the FAQ I would read it as having no cap, but the FAQ is as good as the rules where I come from, and here on YMDC as well.

Oshova

don_mondo wrote:In addition, star engines are a separate move that happens in the shooting phase.......... Since Tank Shock/Ramming only replaces normal movement, the Star Engines movement is not eligible for ramming.

Be mindful of this, a common interpretation of the rules regarding tankshock/ram and star engines. The point is hotly debated in several threads here in YMDC and you may want to discuss this with your opponent and see where your opinions lie to avoid arguments.