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Situation: One of my zzap gun barrages hit an Eldar vehicle speeding flat-out; my opponent failed his cover save; I rolled for immobilization; he then told me that the vehicle was wrecked and that whenever a fast vehicle takes and fails a cover save and is immobilized to remember wreck is the result. Now I'm looking for the rule which justifies what he said.

Question: Was my opponent correct? Please direct me in the rulebook, because the index isn't helping.

Page 71 paragraph 2 under shooting at skimmers, But the short answer is Yes he was correct.

@Zarathos,

Gotcha, found it. So this rule only applies to skimmers, and Eldar transports are (or tend to be) skimmers?

Thanks.

Yes, wave serpents and falcons (the two eldar transports) are both skimmers.

thunderingjove wrote:@Zarathos,

So this rule only applies to skimmers?

Thanks.

Yes, though personally I think it should apply to all flat out movement.

@Zarathos,

I completely agree. From a matter of physics, it makes complete sense. I should link an ork trukk is as likely (more likely?) to disintegrate under like stress the the Eldar whatchamacallits.

zarathos wrote:

Yes, though personally I think it should apply to all flat out movement.

I'd hope you give those fast Rhino's (etc) a "counts as obscured" then!

Anywho, to anyone who might be curious. the list of "Fast Skimmers" are as follows:

Dark Eldar:
Raider -Xport
Ravager
Venom (soon, CAN'T WAIT!)

Eldar
Falcon -Xport
Wave Serpent -Xport
Night Spinner
Fire Prism

Blood Angels:
Stormraven - Xport

IG:
Valkyrie -Xport
Vendetta -Xport (Broken as hell!)

Enjoy!
~DAR

Space Marines:
Land Speeder
Land Speeder Storm -Xport

Oscarius wrote:Space Marines:
Land Speeder
Land Speeder Storm -Xport

Arrrrgh!

[insert charlie brown pic here]

ya got me!


EDIT:

Also, Tau have an upgrade for their skimmers that allow them to FIRE as if they were fast (one gun at 12" all at 6") but they cannot move "Flat out". Thought I might add that one for fun!

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Oscarius wrote:Space Marines:
Land Speeder
Land Speeder Storm -Xport

Arrrrgh!

[insert charlie brown pic here]

ya got me!


EDIT:

Also, Tau have an upgrade for their skimmers that allow them to FIRE as if they were fast (one gun at 12" all at 6") but they cannot move "Flat out". Thought I might add that one for fun!

Well... Tau also have a fast skimmer: the humble Piranha!

Also note, Vehicles that went flatout in your movement phase are not wrecked if an opponent immobilizes the vehicle in his shooting phase.

So yea, unless youre trying to, its almost impossible to wreck your skimmer from going flatout, failed ram etc.

Also under Eldar:

Vyper.

kill dem stunties wrote:Also note, Vehicles that went flatout in your movement phase are not wrecked if an opponent immobilizes the vehicle in his shooting phase.

So yea, unless youre trying to, its almost impossible to wreck your skimmer from going flatout, failed ram etc.

I have to call you out on this one. The rules specifically state if the skimmer has moved flat out in it's last movement phase then immobilized= wrecked applies. The risk of moving flat out doesn't end at the end of your turn, or else the 4+ cover save would also be non existent in the enemy shooting phase. this rule applies until the actually... the beginning of your next movement phase, if it was your vehicle that moved.

kill dem stunties wrote:Also note, Vehicles that went flatout in your movement phase are not wrecked if an opponent immobilizes the vehicle in his shooting phase.

So yea, unless youre trying to, its almost impossible to wreck your skimmer from going flatout, failed ram etc.

I'm afraid the rules disagree with you KDS...

he is probably thinking of the rule for disembarking passengers in which the passengers are only killed if it is immobilized in your shooting phase and otherwise may disembark as normal.

Good catch DAR

Araenion wrote:Also under Eldar:

Vyper.

Vehicle squadrons. Flat out doesn't matter, they are destroyed on Immobilized regardless

From a "realism" point of view, even fast vehicles moving Flat Out are only doing about 10 mph, and even a soap box cart can survive a wheel coming off at that speed.

And from a fluff point, Orkz fink dat de trukk kan go fasta, so it doze!

I just realized that the immobilised goes to wrecked only when shot at.

If I move flat out and become immobilised by landing in difficult terrain, then I do not get wrecked.

Please note that the passage scanned above is under the heading Shooting at skimmers

There is nothing in the moving skimmers section that says immobilised goes to wrecked.

One other thing I noticed was that when you do get immobilised from difficult terrain, you place the model outside the terrain per the normal vehicles/terrain rules. I've always been putting it where I wanted it to land.

*forehead slap* please tell me this isn't right that I have been nerfing myself all this time lol. If you immob yourself via a ram/dangerous terrain in your movement phase going flat out does it count as wrecked? Rereading the passage it seems to imply only if you did "last turn"... omg all the tourneys I counted it as wrecked... *cries*

ryan3740 wrote:I just realized that the immbolised -> wrecked only when shot at.

If I move flat out and become immbolised by landing in difficult terrain, then I do not get wrecked.

It is true by the letter of the rules, but if you choose to play this way then you run into several wonky situations and at least one that has no clear resolution.

What do I mean by this?

Well if you play by the letter of the rules (that only how far you moved in your LAST movement phase applies) then anytime a vehicle takes damage in its own turn you get the penalties and benefits from how it moved the PREVIOUS turn...yeah, that's great when you immobilize yourself when moving flat-out THIS turn, but you also have to remember to play this same way when you moved flat-out LAST turn and you are only moving at combat speed THIS turn and get immobilized...most people seem to conveniently 'forget' the hard-line RAW stance at that point for some reason.

And don't forget if you're tank shocking with your skimmer (moving flat-out) and a model attempts to Death or Glory you with a shooting weapon...you only get the cover save for moving fast if you moved flat-out in your LAST movement phase (not this one).

And finally, if you choose to play this way then you end up with a whole bunch of unanswerable questions regarding the first turn of the game (because there was no previous movement phase).


So at the end of the day, I highly suggest discussing this situation with your opponent before hand and (I recommend) assuming that GW simply didn't think out their wording very carefully and applying these movement rules to the CURRENT turn if your vehicle suffers damage during its own turn.

But that's just me...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlueDagger wrote:*forehead slap* please tell me this isn't right that I have been nerfing myself all this time lol. If you immob yourself via a ram/dangerous terrain in your movement phase going flat out does it count as wrecked? Rereading the passage it seems to imply only if you did "last turn"... omg all the tourneys I counted it as wrecked... *cries*

I wouldn't beat yourself up about it too hard. Most people I've met and most T.O.s I've seen rule against the RAW in this situation for exactly the reasons I stated above.

Very good points Yak. Getting cover vs a melta shot in tank shock > flat out wreck for landing in a stupid area

yakface wrote:Well if you play by the letter of the rules (that only how far you moved in your LAST movement phase applies) then anytime a vehicle takes damage in its own turn you get the penalties and benefits from how it moved the PREVIOUS turn...yeah, that's great when you immobilize yourself when moving flat-out THIS turn, but you also have to remember to play this same way when you moved flat-out LAST turn and you are only moving at combat speed THIS turn and get immobilized...most people seem to conveniently 'forget' the hard-line RAW stance at that point for some reason.

Yakface, that's what I thought too, then I realized the rule above is in the section shooting at skimmers. I'd only apply it during my turn when getting shot at, which is rare on MY turn. The rule is not in the moving skimmers section where the rules for terrain types are.

ryan3740 wrote:
Yakface, that's what I thought too, then I realized the rule above is in the section shooting at skimmers. I'd only apply it during my turn when getting shot at, which is rare on MY turn. The rule is not in the moving skimmers section where the rules for terrain types are.

Agreed, but the rules in that section don't make any mention of only applying to a skimmer that is immobilized via shooting, just whenever a skimmer is immobilized period (unlike the previous paragraph regarding the cover save which specifically mentions 'fired at').

The problem is GW constantly puts rules into sections that they apply MOST frequently, when they sometimes seem to apply in other situations.

A great example is the rules for wounding, these are found in the section for the SHOOTING phase (and again referenced in the assault phase). Does that mean something that causes damage in the movement phase (like a Swooping Hawk grenade pack, Ork Big Bomm, or Mawloc attack) can't possibly cause any wounds because the only rules for wounding models are in the SHOOTING phase section?

Of course not! The rulebook is constantly formatted in this way, where a rule is written in the section it most applies and then you have to go back to those rules when need apply.

I personally feel this is just another one of those situations, but I understand if you disagree...but like I said, you just have to make sure you play the same way in ALL situations and you probably want to let your opponent know ahead of time you plan to play that way because in my experience most people don't agree with your assessment.

ryan3740 wrote:
Yakface, that's what I thought too, then I realized the rule above is in the section shooting at skimmers. I'd only apply it during my turn when getting shot at, which is rare on MY turn. The rule is not in the moving skimmers section where the rules for terrain types are.

If this were the case, Jaws of the World Wolf would do nothing as the rules for "Charateristic Tests" are not in the Movement Phase, Shooting Phase, or Assault Phase, so there is no time in which those rules would apply...

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:If this were the case, Jaws of the World Wolf would do nothing as the rules for "Charateristic Tests" are not in the Movement Phase, Shooting Phase, or Assault Phase, so there is no time in which those rules would apply...

Okay, now you're just being silly. There is a section for characteristic test on pages 6 - 8. How do you resolve any Characteristic test? Look at pages 6 - 8.

How do I resolve what happens when I move a skimmer into dificult terrain? I look in the moving vehicles and moving skimmer sections.
Page 57 under Vehicles and movement / Terrain Effects says to treat difficult as dangerous terrain, and to halt immediately outside of the terrain if you roll a 1 and you're immobilised.

Page 71 Skimmers Skimmers follow the normal rules for vehciles, with the additions and exceptions given below.
Page 71 Moving Skimmers says I can mover over difficult terrain. It's only when I start or end in the terrain that I have to take a dangerous terrain test. How do I resolve a dangerous terrain check on a vehicle? Page 57 tells me. No mention of immobilising becoming destroyed. No mention of dangerous terrain interacting with flat out.

It's not until you read further down in the shooting at skimmers that it tells you that you that when you moved flat out in the last movement phase, you get a 4+ cover save when shot at. It then tells you that if you moved flat out in the last movement phase and are immobilized that it immediately crashes and is destroyed (wrecked).

In 4th edition it was all skimmers that moved immobilised become destroyed. Heck, I still have players tell me all skimmers that are immobilised are wrecked. I've always played in 5th edition it was all moves of flat out immobilised becomes wrecked. I'm beginning to think that it is only in your opponent's shooting phase that this happens.

I think this debate might require a new thread, so that it's title will represent the point of contention.

Sorry, ryan, but the immobilized if moved flat out rule doesn't use the word shooting anywhere in it.

The section a rule appears in has no bearing on it's effectiveness. You need to take the BGB as a whole and apply any rule that is relevant, no matter where in the book it appears.

ryan3740 wrote:Page 57 under Vehicles and movement / Terrain Effects says to treat difficult as dangerous terrain, and to halt immediately outside of the terrain if you roll a 1 and you're immobilised.

...

It then tells you that if you moved flat out in the last movement phase and are immobilized that it immediately crashes and is destroyed (wrecked).

So as yakface said.

Either A:

You have a chance to be wrecked via immobilised for the entire following turn, and you get your obscured save until your next movement phase. (Which the rules support as they specifically mention "An immobilised skimmer not getting its obscured save" which would be point less if a skimmer which would be eligible for Obscured from speed to be always wrecked on an immobilized.)

So You have the save during:

Your Shooting phase
Your Assault phase
Your enemies Movement phase
Your Enemies shooting phase
Your Enemies Assaul phase
Your next movement phase. (repeat of desired)

And you have the 'Chance of Wrecked' during
Your opponents movement phase
Your opponents shooting phase
Your opponents assault phase
Your NEXT movement phase. (Assuming you don't move flat out again)
Your NEXT shooting phase.
Your NEXT assault phase.
Or B:

You have the chance of both occuring the moment you move flat out, and only until your next movement phase (Which is how the INAT rules it, and is the general way this rule is played)

You'd have the save and the Immobiwrecked at the same times (starting at the movement phase in which you move flat out) but NOT counting if you ram during that movement phase.

Personally, I think it is interesting to do it the way "A" describes (Keeps you safe on your movement phase after moving flat out, but makes you more vunerable for longer times and makes you really have to think about how you move your skimmers) but many people use B as it is more simplistic.

As for your statement linking the "Immobiwrecked" only to shooting due to wording, if you play it in style "B" (the common one) the reason the immobilised is wrecking you is that Dangerous Terrain tests happen AFTER the movement phase (If you read the rules for vehicles moving, you will see that you roll a d6 for EVERY vehicle that has MOVED ((past tense)) though difficult terrain and apply their effects as needed, yes, this REALLY overcomplicates things like tank-shocking/ramming as if they were to have failed the test at the end of the movement phase, they probably would not have cause whatever effects they end up causing... but in the same light, it can be easily argued that Ramming/Tank Shock is immune to Difficult/Dangerous terrain) You would also still be vunerable in the assault phase as the wording on the "Immobiwrecking" rule does not care if the immobilized result is caused by a shooting attack, only that an "Immobilized result" occurs.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Or B:
You have the chance of both occuring the moment you move flat out, and only until your next movement phase (Which is how the INAT rules it, and is the general way this rule is played)

You'd have the save and the Immobiwrecked at the same times (starting at the movement phase in which you move flat out) but NOT counting if you ram during that movement phase.

I agree it's how most people play it, myself included until today. Your B. is not supported by the rules. The rules do not say I get a cover save or get wrecked the same turn I move flat out. What I'm saying is you're missing this interpretation

C: You get a coversave when shot at. If you fail your coversave and get immobilised you become wrecked.

That's the only thing that makes sense to me. It's either that or A. I see no rules to support B. The only thing that I see that supports B is the 3rd and 4th edition rulebooks.

By the way, lots of people play dawn of war deployment incorrectly. It doesn't make them right. I still have to correct people that 1 HQ unit means farseer or warlocks, not both.