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Quick one - I have an assault squad surrounding a predator. They are then charged by a tactical squad. Am I allowed to move my squad up to 6" as usua? My opponent said no, but I don't ever count as being locked in combat with a vehicle do I?

Barring a walker, you never count as locked in CC with a vehicle, as your troops always have the option of walking away.

That last part makes things a little confusing (as it seems to imply that you'd get your attacks on both the vehicle, and the normal assault) but my opinion on that ruling is indifferent to this question.

The answer to your question, as you can see by the underlined segments of the rules is such:

Yes, you are allowed to make your "defenders react" move as per the assault rules. If you were locked in combat with the vehicle, you would not be able to CHOOSE to attack the vehicle again (Second underline) as in assault "When their Initiative value is reached, models with that Initiative who are still alive MUST attack." -Page 37 BRB




~DAR

Would you stop cutting and pasting whole segments of rules into the forum?

You get your Defender's React move. If you are still in base contact I would let you swing at the vehicle a second time.

You're never locked into combat with a vehicle unless it's a walker, your guys next to the predator act exactly like guys standing next to a building or to your own vehicle. You 'defenders react' just like you would any other time, the predator doesn't limit you.

calypso2ts wrote:Would you stop cutting and pasting whole segments of rules into the forum?.

Posting relevant rules quotes is fine. Preferred practice, even.

Whether you post an image excerpt or type it all out makes no practical difference. Although excessive or over-large images should be avoided, as they can clutter up the thread, and posting large unrelated chunks of rules would definitely be out.

I agree that rules quotes are good, but giving out the entire rule set for successive turns, including the pivoting part, seems to be a bit much when a simple "...may attack it again, just as in a normal ongoing combat..." probably would have been sufficient.

calypso2ts wrote:I agree that rules quotes are good, but giving out the entire rule set for successive turns, including the pivoting part, seems to be a bit much when a simple "...may attack it again, just as in a normal ongoing combat..." probably would have been sufficient.

the problem with just listing this would actually change the answer to "No" as if you are "Locked In" a normal ongoing combat, you do NOT get your "Defenders React" step. And actually, after re-reading the rules, the answer is in fact "Yes and NO"

ANy models that WERE in base contact with the vehicle are NOT allowed to make thier "Defenders react" move, as they are ALREADY in base contact with a unit involved in the assault (you can't move away from something you are already in combat with to be in combat with something else) however, any models that are NOT in base contact with the vehicle (in your case, the predator) MUST move into contact with either the new "Assaulting unit" or the vehicle. Models that would be in base contact with both the Predator and the Assault marines may split their attacks as normal.

I will post pictures of the actual rule quotes that verify the above statement upon user request (disagreement will be taken as a form of "User request")

The image quote is irrelevant, but my original answer is wrong too. The rule that matters is Defenders react on p34, "...must move any member of these units that is not yet in base contact with a foe towards an enemy". Making a defender reacts move doesn't care about whether you're locked in combat, it only cares if you're in base contact with an enemy unit, so models in base with the vehicle actually can't defender react, and my local group has been playing it wrong. The interesting thing, however, is that it appears that if you are in BtB with a vehicle and get charged, anyone not in BtB can choose to defender react into the vehicle, as the rule only says that the move cannot be used "to contact enemy units that are not currently involved in the assault" - while the vehicle is not locked in combat, it's clearly involved in the assault as attacks will be resolved against it during the assault, so it's a valid target to hit with reaction moves.

@BOS: Did you not read my post?

Okay I guess you should post the whole book then because otherwise no one would know what assault is and what it means to be locked in combat without that reference and no one would know what it means to assault without that reference but no one knows where the assault phase is if...

A general baseline knowledge needs to be assumed - everyone knows a vehicle w/o a WS does not lock - therefore, the EXCEPTION is all that is required to have the discussion.

Or we could leave the decision as to how much of the rules it's acceptable to post up to the mods (one of whom has already stated that this particular post was fine) and return to the actual topic...

Thanks for the responses on this one everyone.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:@BOS: Did you not read my post?

I didn't read the edit that you did to it roughly ten minutes after I finished my post, no, because I lack precognition, and I didn't read any earlier edit between the time I quoted it and the time I finished my post. Your original post that you had said something different than it does now, and was either incorrect or vague (I forget which now). It's not good form to edit your post after I've posted, then me out not reading the edit.

Hey guy's, I actually think you have it wrong. My reasoning for this is that when you are not locked in assault with a vehicle, and are being assaulted, the vehicle cannot be invovled in the assualt. Addtionally, if you reference the defenders react section in the assault it tells you that the reacting models must move in the same manner as those that are assaulting. At this point the second bullet point tells you that if possible you must move models into base contact with an model who is not already in base with an assaulting model. If you cannot you must then move into conact with a model who is in base to base already. Then, it goes onto say that if you cannot do that you must be within two inches of a model who is in base to base.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Hey guy's, I actually think you have it wrong. My reasoning for this is that when you are not locked in assault with a vehicle, and are being assaulted, the vehicle cannot be invovled in the assualt.

"Involved in assault" is not specifically defined anywhere in the rulebook, but presumably it's different than "locked in assault" since they'd otherwise use the phrase "locked in assault". When you resolve the combat that the reacting unit is involved in, some attacks will go against the vehicle, and that meets the general meaning of involved. The vehicle will be considered engaged with some of the models in the assault, and I think it sounds odd that a unit could be 'engaged' but not 'involved' with an assault.

Addtionally, if you reference the defenders react section in the assault it tells you that the reacting models must move in the same manner as those that are assaulting. At this point the second bullet point tells you that if possible you must move models into base contact with an model who is not already in base with an assaulting model. If you cannot you must then move into conact with a model who is in base to base already. Then, it goes onto say that if you cannot do that you must be within two inches of a model who is in base to base.

That's correct, if there are attacking models not in BtB, then the defenders would have to move to them first if they can reach them. That wouldn't stop you from reacting into the vehicle if the attacking models were already in BtB, or if they can't reach any of the attacking models not in BtB.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Hey guy's, I actually think you have it wrong. My reasoning for this is that when you are not locked in assault with a vehicle, and are being assaulted, the vehicle cannot be invovled in the assualt.

"Involved in assault" is not specifically defined anywhere in the rulebook, but presumably it's different than "locked in assault" since they'd otherwise use the phrase "locked in assault". When you resolve the combat that the reacting unit is involved in, some attacks will go against the vehicle, and that meets the general meaning of involved. The vehicle will be considered engaged with some of the models in the assault, and I think it sounds odd that a unit could be 'engaged' but not 'involved' with an assault.

Addtionally, if you reference the defenders react section in the assault it tells you that the reacting models must move in the same manner as those that are assaulting. At this point the second bullet point tells you that if possible you must move models into base contact with an model who is not already in base with an assaulting model. If you cannot you must then move into conact with a model who is in base to base already. Then, it goes onto say that if you cannot do that you must be within two inches of a model who is in base to base.

That's correct, if there are attacking models not in BtB, then the defenders would have to move to them first if they can reach them. That wouldn't stop you from reacting into the vehicle if the attacking models were already in BtB, or if they can't reach any of the attacking models not in BtB.

I think you are missing the second to last bullet points, or in other words you need to move models to within 2 inches of a model in BtB to become engaged.

At that point you cannot move into BTB with another unit/other models that are not in the assaulting unit. It seems to me that you are attempting to pave the way for a situation where you can loop more units into an assault by the defenders react moves. Which you cannot seegins how you cannot engage more then the unit/s that are assaulting your models on your oppenents turn.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:@BOS: Did you not read my post?

I didn't read the edit that you did to it roughly ten minutes after I finished my post, no, because I lack precognition, and I didn't read any earlier edit between the time I quoted it and the time I finished my post. Your original post that you had said something different than it does now, and was either incorrect or vague (I forget which now). It's not good form to edit your post after I've posted, then me out not reading the edit.

just as a head up, the only "Edits" I did was putting certain words in the post in "all caps" incase other people missed my post (I thought it was my post that was misleading, so I capitalized the important parts.)

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:I think you are missing the second to last bullet points, or in other words you need to move models to within 2 inches of a model in BtB to become engaged. At that point you cannot move into BTB with another unit/other models that are not in the assaulting unit.

There is no requirement that models using defenders react move into Btb with the assaulting unit, those words do not appear in the rulebook. The defenders react move "may not be used to contact enemy units that are not currently involved in the assault", but there is no restriction that they can only move to the assaulting unit. Your second sentence is a rule you invented, not the real rule. I'm not sure what relevance the second to the last bullet point has, you can only move the 'within 2"' if you can't get into BtB with an enemy model because you have to follow the 3rd bullet point first, which means that if you can get into BtB with any model (including a vehicle) you have to.

It seems to me that you are attempting to pave the way for a situation where you can loop more units into an assault by the defenders react moves. Which you cannot seegins how you cannot engage more then the unit/s that are assaulting your models on your oppenents turn.

This is not looping any more enemy units into assault, this is defenders reacting into units that you are already involved in an assault with. No additional units are being engaged here, just ones that are already involved in the assault. There is no restriction in the 'defenders react' rules that states that you are only allowed to engage the units that are assaulting your models, if you think there is then you need to quote it and/or give a page reference.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:I think you are missing the second to last bullet points, or in other words you need to move models to within 2 inches of a model in BtB to become engaged. At that point you cannot move into BTB with another unit/other models that are not in the assaulting unit.

There is no requirement that models using defenders react move into Btb with the assaulting unit, those words do not appear in the rulebook. The defenders react move "may not be used to contact enemy units that are not currently involved in the assault", but there is no restriction that they can only move to the assaulting unit. Your second sentence is a rule you invented, not the real rule. I'm not sure what relevance the second to the last bullet point has, you can only move the 'within 2"' if you can't get into BtB with an enemy model because you have to follow the 3rd bullet point first, which means that if you can get into BtB with any model (including a vehicle) you have to.

It seems to me that you are attempting to pave the way for a situation where you can loop more units into an assault by the defenders react moves. Which you cannot seegins how you cannot engage more then the unit/s that are assaulting your models on your oppenents turn.

This is not looping any more enemy units into assault, this is defenders reacting into units that you are already involved in an assault with. No additional units are being engaged here, just ones that are already involved in the assault. There is no restriction in the 'defenders react' rules that states that you are only allowed to engage the units that are assaulting your models, if you think there is then you need to quote it and/or give a page reference.

So where to begin, first vehicles, cannot launch an assault unless they are Walkers IIRC. So at that point, vehichles can only be invovled in assaults if they are assaulted. Or in other words, in the turn you assaulted my vehicle. Addtionally, you need to be locked into a combat, page 41 Multiple combats, in order to stay where you are, or in other words you can ignore the must move listed under defenders react step in assault.

I said it sounds like you are trying to loop more units into an assault that your oppenent declared against you. Can you in a defenders react move, move into a unit that did not declare an assault? If you can please cite a page refference for me so I can read it. You are also not moving your models (if you can) into models that are already in base contact with an assaulter (another bullet point in which it states that if all models are already in base contact, and you can still move into base contact you must) if you leave them where they are when they must move. They are not locked in combat with the vehicle. Again, Vehicles cannot (I repeat) cannot launch or be invovled with an assault, because they cannot launch assault moves on your oppenents turn. Before you go and cite page 63, no where in the successive turns does it say that vehicles are invovled, or even begin assaulted.