Deff Rolla and Minimum Distance for Ram

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**pretre**

Okay, I apologize if this has been covered before. I searched and could not find anything specifically covering this question that didn't go completely downhill because of other DR arguments. Please try to keep this on topic. kthx

Can you block a DR BW by parking 1" in front of it?

Basically, is there a minimum distance for DR Movement since it is a both a Tank Shock and a Ram?

The answers probably fall into one of the following:
a) You only need to declare that you are moving max speed, so the hits go off even if you don't move.
b) You need to move to tank shock, even if you don't move the fully declared speed.
c) You need to move combat speed to tank shock, so if you are stopped before combat speed is reached, nothing happens.

(My inclination is (b) if the BW doesn't move, it can't tank shock. Pivots don't count as moves for tank shocks, so should non-movement count as moves for tank shocks?)

Appropriate rules quotes:

Tank Shock - BRB P68
"To make this kind of attack, first turn the vehicle on the spot in the direction you intend to move it and declare how many inches the vehicle is going to move. The vehicle must move at least at combat speed. Note that pivoting on the spot does not count as moving, this is not enough for a tank shock."

Ramming - BRB P69
"Ramming is a special kind of tank shock and is executed the same way, except that the tank must always move at the highest speed it is capable of. Units other than vehicles in the way of a ramming tank are tank shocked as normal. However, if the ramming tank comes into contact with an enemy vehicle, the collision is resolved as follows."

Deff Rolla - Ork Codex P55
"Any tank shock made by a BW with a DR causes D6 Strength 10 hits on the victim unit."

Deff Rolla - Ork FAQ
"Q: Can you use the Deffrolla when Ramming vehicles or does it only work when Tank Shocking non-vehicle units?
A: The death rolla does indeed inflict D6 S10 hits against vehicles, as Ramming is just a type of Tank Shock."

**calypso2ts**

I would say that so long as the tank shock is declared legally - point in a direction and declare a distance - then the Ram takes place even if it is a 0.5" ram or 0" ram. The ramming rules account for the "strength" of the hit in relation to the speed.

Think of it like a car parked in front of a tractor trailer...(poor car)

**kartofelkopf**

The way to prevent Rams is to ram the BW first- then it can't make a legal ram move, and will likely be unable to ram another vehicle without clipping the vehicle already in contact with it.

So- 1" away does NOT prevent Rams and DR.

Being in contact with the vehicle DOES prevent rams.

**calypso2ts**

How does being in contact with a BW prevent rams? The BW can't 'pivot' but it can still drive straight ahead for its Tank Shock move...?

**pretre**

Hmmm. Trying to see where he is coming from

BRB P68
"If the tank accidentally moves into contact with a friendly model or comes to within 1" of an enemy vehicle, it immediately stops moving."

Doesn't quite cover it though, as being in contact already does not seem to be outlined.

**Grakmar**

pretre wrote:Hmmm. Trying to see where he is coming from

BRB P68
"If the tank accidentally moves into contact with a friendly model or comes to within 1" of an enemy vehicle, it immediately stops moving."

Doesn't quite cover it though, as being in contact already does not seem to be outlined.

Actually, that's an interesting problem. If you're in contact with an enemy vehicle, you'd immediately "come to within 1"" of it and immediately stop moving. Going by that rule, can a vehicle even drive away when in contact with an enemy vehicle. It would start to move that 0.00001" and find itself within 1" and have to immediately stop.

(Yes, of coarse this is a RAW discussion. Practically, I can't imagine someone pulling this on you in a real game.)

**pretre**

The quote was from the Tank Shock section. Pretty sure you can always move away from a model you are in contact with, that's a separate issue.

**Grakmar**

Oh, I thought we had found a cool new RAW problem. Nevermind

**kartofelkopf**

calypso2ts wrote:How does being in contact with a BW prevent rams? The BW can't 'pivot' but it can still drive straight ahead for its Tank Shock move...?

Because the rules call for the BW to actually move before contacting, starting in contact with a vehicle prevents it from ramming. Further, most times, a pivot will be impossible, too, as it will require clipping the other vehicle or "moving through" the enemy vehicle. A lot of the time your only option will be to back up.

While it doesn't carry any rules weight, this is the rare instance in 40k YMDC where the fluff and RAW are in perfect harmony- a ram from a standstill (pure torque and no momentum) against a target already in contact with you isn't actually a ram so much as a push, and very unlikely to damage the "rammed" vehicle.

**pretre**

Which rule requires movement? Can you quote a page/section?

**Daemon-Archon Ren**

kartofelkopf wrote:
Because the rules call for the BW to actually move before contacting, starting in contact with a vehicle prevents it from ramming. Further, most times, a pivot will be impossible, too, as it will require clipping the other vehicle or "moving through" the enemy vehicle. A lot of the time your only option will be to back up.

While it doesn't carry any rules weight, this is the rare instance in 40k YMDC where the fluff and RAW are in perfect harmony- a ram from a standstill (pure torque and no momentum) against a target already in contact with you isn't actually a ram so much as a push, and very unlikely to damage the "rammed" vehicle.

I don't see anywhere in the Ramming rules that requires movement, you would hit the vehicle in base contact at Str 5 (4 from armor 1 from being a tank 0 from movement) if you kill it(Wreck/Explode) and you aren't rendered unable to move (from stunned or immobilised) and you are still alive (not wrecked/exploded) you continue moving up to 18" (you must be moving at max speed, so if you are on a road, you'd move 24").

**calypso2ts**

Right - the strength of the ram is where 'speed' is handled not in trying to ram something. Heck you may even get a higher strength hit if you are a LR or some other high armor vehicle!

Also, looking at my comment on not being able to pivot, I think I have to amend it, you certainly can pivot provided it is part of a valid tank shock. You may not be able to just pivot though w/o tank shcoking.

**Mahtamori**

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
kartofelkopf wrote:
Because the rules call for the BW to actually move before contacting, starting in contact with a vehicle prevents it from ramming. Further, most times, a pivot will be impossible, too, as it will require clipping the other vehicle or "moving through" the enemy vehicle. A lot of the time your only option will be to back up.

While it doesn't carry any rules weight, this is the rare instance in 40k YMDC where the fluff and RAW are in perfect harmony- a ram from a standstill (pure torque and no momentum) against a target already in contact with you isn't actually a ram so much as a push, and very unlikely to damage the "rammed" vehicle.

I don't see anywhere in the Ramming rules that requires movement, you would hit the vehicle in base contact at Str 5 (4 from armor 1 from being a tank 0 from movement) if you kill it(Wreck/Explode) and you aren't rendered unable to move (from stunned or immobilised) and you are still alive (not wrecked/exploded) you continue moving up to 18" (you must be moving at max speed, so if you are on a road, you'd move 24").

Both Tank Shock and Ramming requires you to align the tank making the Tank Shock move towards it's intended target and then move the tank straight forward. If you can't turn your Battle Wagon towards the enemy tank/unit because that pivot would cause you to physically touch the model, you can't align to it, and since you can't align you will not be able to make the tank shock. The 1" area of exclusion is perfectly fine to violate in this case, it's actually bumping into enemy models that's never OK.

**Kilkrazy**

Could a vehicle back off, then move forwards to Tank Shock?

**caddock**

Kilkrazy wrote:Could a vehicle back off, then move forwards to Tank Shock?

No, I don't think so. Page 68 says a tank shock is done instead of normal movement, then only describes an initial pivot and straight ahead move as parts of the attack. Further saying 'no other changes of direction are allowed'. That would seem to rule out backing up and then going forward.

**kartofelkopf**

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
kartofelkopf wrote:
Because the rules call for the BW to actually move before contacting, starting in contact with a vehicle prevents it from ramming. Further, most times, a pivot will be impossible, too, as it will require clipping the other vehicle or "moving through" the enemy vehicle. A lot of the time your only option will be to back up.

While it doesn't carry any rules weight, this is the rare instance in 40k YMDC where the fluff and RAW are in perfect harmony- a ram from a standstill (pure torque and no momentum) against a target already in contact with you isn't actually a ram so much as a push, and very unlikely to damage the "rammed" vehicle.

I don't see anywhere in the Ramming rules that requires movement, you would hit the vehicle in base contact at Str 5 (4 from armor 1 from being a tank 0 from movement) if you kill it(Wreck/Explode) and you aren't rendered unable to move (from stunned or immobilised) and you are still alive (not wrecked/exploded) you continue moving up to 18" (you must be moving at max speed, so if you are on a road, you'd move 24").

A) BW aren't fast- 13" max (with red paint).
B) You're required to declare a distance- if your scenario is correct, I could declare a distance of 0" and still make contact for ramming.
c) It's all moot for the reason Mahtamori points out- you have to pivot to face. In most cases, you'll be unable to pivot properly because there's a vehicle already basing you.

**Daemon-Archon Ren**

kartofelkopf wrote:
B) You're required to declare a distance- if your scenario is correct, I could declare a distance of 0" and still make contact for ramming.
c) It's all moot for the reason Mahtamori points out- you have to pivot to face. In most cases, you'll be unable to pivot properly because there's a vehicle already basing you.

no

first off, you don't have to "Face" the persons vehicles as you don't have to target anything for a ram.

Secondly, you HAVE to move at MAX speed when ramming, this is pretty clear by the ramming rules.

Mahtamori is wrong in the sense that you don't "choose a target" more so, you move, and if you happen to hit something, then you would resolve said hit when it happens.

Nothing in here mentions or even implies a minimum movement distance for the "collision" to happen.

**kartofelkopf**

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
kartofelkopf wrote:
B) You're required to declare a distance- if your scenario is correct, I could declare a distance of 0" and still make contact for ramming.
c) It's all moot for the reason Mahtamori points out- you have to pivot to face. In most cases, you'll be unable to pivot properly because there's a vehicle already basing you.

no

first off, you don't have to "Face" the persons vehicles as you don't have to target anything for a ram.

Well, rams always happen with your front armor facing. If I've rammed you already, you're required to "aim" such that the front of your vehicle is the ramming portion. So, yes, you do need to face the vehicle you intend to ram; you can't tank shock sideways.

**pretre**

So far it seems no one has agreed. I'll just have to ask my opponent if it comes up.

P.S. Where's Gwar! when I need him?

**Mahtamori**

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
kartofelkopf wrote:
B) You're required to declare a distance- if your scenario is correct, I could declare a distance of 0" and still make contact for ramming.
c) It's all moot for the reason Mahtamori points out- you have to pivot to face. In most cases, you'll be unable to pivot properly because there's a vehicle already basing you.

no

first off, you don't have to "Face" the persons vehicles as you don't have to target anything for a ram.

Secondly, you HAVE to move at MAX speed when ramming, this is pretty clear by the ramming rules.

Mahtamori is wrong in the sense that you don't "choose a target" more so, you move, and if you happen to hit something, then you would resolve said hit when it happens.

Nothing in here mentions or even implies a minimum movement distance for the "collision" to happen.

I am correct within the premises I wrote my post under. I made no attempt at illustrating a minimum distance, only to illustrate how a tank shock move could be denied by models standing close or in contact with the tank.

By the way, a target can also be a direction, although the rules do seem to offer leniency as to how the initial align would take place.