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Hey. Just getting back into 40k after a period of 5 or 6 years without. I had a ton of armies back in the day but decided to start fresh with Eldar this time around. I have done a lot of reading here and other places about what seems to be what in 5th edition but I want to get some input and suggestions about my final list. It is a pretty mechy list and I'd like to keep it as mostly transported infantry with jetbikes and vypers left out for the time being.

Farseer [145]
-Runes of Warding
-Runes of Witnessing
-Spirit Stones
-Doom
-Guide

10 Striking Scorpions *** [352]
-Exarch
-Scorpion Claw
-Stalker
-Wave Serpent
-Twin-Linked Missle Launcher
-Shuriken Cannon
-Spirit Stones
-Vectored Engines

10 Howling Banshees *** [352]
-Exarch
-Executioner
-Acrobatic
-War Shout
-Wave Serpent
-Twin-Linked Missle Launcher
-Shuriken Cannon
-Spirit Stones
-Vectored Engines

6 Fire Dragons [136]
-Exarch
-Firepike
-Tank Hunters
-Crack Shot

10 Dire Avengers [307]
-Exarch
-Two Shuriken Catapults
-Bladestorm
-Wave Serpent
-Twin-Linked Scatter Laser
-Shuriken Cannon
-Spirit Stones
-Vectored Engines

10 Dire Avengers [322]
-Exarch
-Power Weapon & Shimmershield
-Defend
-Wave Serpent
-Twin-Linked Missle Launcher
-Shuriken Cannon
-Spirit Stones
-Vectored Engines

6 Rangers [144]
-Pathfinders

3 War Walker Squadron [180]
-Scatter Laser
-Scatter Laser

Falcon [205]
-Missle Launcher
-Holo-Field
-Spirit Stones
-Vectored Engines

Fire Prism [180]
-Shuriken Cannon
-Holo-Field
-Vectored Engines

TOTAL [2001]


I have one shooty Dire Avengers squad, one tarpit Dire Avengers squad, and the CC specialist squad all mounted in Wave Serpents. The Fire Dragons will be riding in the falcon. I have read good things about the EML / Shuri Cannon combo on Wave Serpents with plasma missiles counting as defensive. It also seems that both Rangers and War Walkers are extremely strong in 5th edition with Infiltrate/Outflank so I thought I would give them a shot. The two starred units are mutually exclusive and I will probably vary which I use depending on my opponent's army composition. I plan to use the Striking Scorpions against GEQ and the Howling Banshees against MEQ as that is what the units seemed designed to handle. Also the list is over by one point. I haven't decided where i want to cut yet to get back under 2000 so any suggestions for that are welcome as well. I'm trying not to tool this list directly against my buddy who will be my primary opponent, but he will be playing a Deathguard list. I believe his army list is still on the first page of this forum for reference. Any advice you could give him as well would be appreciated as well. I look forward to reading your responses, take it easy.

Well, vectored engines are only useful if the skimmer move over 12''.
But its better to keep them shooty all the time, i.e., moving them at most 12''.

The army could be optimized a bit. A FD Exarch is not a must have,
5 Pathfinders would suffice, and two nakes Prisms are better than one tooled-up

wuestenfux is right. You are being very inefficient with points. Here is a tldr post detailing some information on all the stuff you have, as well as some advice, I hope you find it helpful.

First an exposition on vehicle upgrades:

Vectored Engines: 20 points for an upgrade that only comes into play on 1 dice result only when you move flat out. This is never worth it. You are spending 120 points on vectored engines alone... that's nearly enough for a scoring unit of jet bikes with an embolden lock, or more pathfinders.

Underslung Shuriken Cannon: This is an OK upgrade. It fires at bs3, and isn't twin linked, but it is s6. Because it is so inferior to your turret, you won't use it if you move 12 inches- unless you take the eml. I would take an under slung cannon if and only if I take a missile launcher. This is because it gives me the option of shooting all my guns at infantry if I move 12 inches (eml plasma round is s4 and hence defensive) Leave them at home if you are taking different turret mounts.

Spirit Stones: This is one of the better upgrades on Eldar tanks. Its extra armor equivalent, and isn't too many points. Whether you should take them is your discretion. There are 2 schools of thought. One being that they only effect one dice roll on the damage table, and that for 10 points a tank you could build more units. The other school of thought says that if it does come into effect, it is so valuable that you should take them on all your transports. They are cool with holofields because 51% of all damage results are only shaken, assuming ap 2+

Holofields Expensive, and durable. There are also two schools of thought on these. for the price of 2 fire prisms with holofields... you could almost afford another prism. They also INCREASE the odds of a weapon destroyed result (although this statistic, while strictly speaking true doesn't take into account the added protection against destroyed). I take them if I have points to spare, generally though I'll forgo them infavor of more toys. Eldar aren't a very cost effective army in terms of point per damage, you need to bring all the bullets you can to the table.

Now for some talk about the units you've included in your army:

Either take 2 fire prisms or none at all. They need the options to combine their beams to really be worthwhile. That feature is awesome.

You should run both your Dire Avenger exarchs as 2 catapults + bladestorm. Dire Avengers are rubbish in close combat, and should avoid it like the plague in a mech list. more dakka.

If you want a shooting troop unit that isn't totally slowed in close combat take Storm Guardians. I run one along side with my Dire Avengers and they usually out perform the avengers.
127 points will buy you 10 Storm Guardians with 2 flamers and a Warlock with Destructor. This gives you an effective unit to nail things hiding in cover or bunched up, and because of pistol + ccw, you've got 3 attacks each on the charge, and 3 witchblade attacks which hit vehicles at s9. Due to sheer number of attacks, and ability to actually deal with walkers, and the cheapness of the squad, they are a better cc unit than Dire Avengers in most circumstances if you need to charge a unit on an objective or something. Remember, Storms are a shooty unit first, cc unit second. don't let the swords fool you, its the flamers that cause the damage.

Striking Scorpions don't really contribute anything to a list that small arms fire doesn't already cover. I would either drop their serpent and outflank em, or leave em in the box. Outflanking is really all they can do that you dont' have covered in your list.

Falcons are awful transports for Fire Dragons. Fire Dragons are close range suicide units, Falcons are long range support tanks, don't let the transport capacity fool you. Wave Serpents are better transports than Falcons for Fire Dragons.
1) Wave Serpents are cheaper: 110 points buys you a serpent with a tl shuri cannon and spirit stones.
2) Wave Serpents can shoot at full effectiveness while moving 12 inches and since their turret is twin linked they shoot more accurately, Falcons lose a shot with a heavy weapon when they move fast and its not twin linked so they miss often
3) Wave Serpents have built in protection from close ranged anti tank. The energy field rule on the Wave Serpent ignores extra dice from rending and melta. This means that it has a better chance of surviving when it drops off the dragons into the heart of the enemy... generally where the enemy melta is located. Falcons have holofields, which while it ultimately serves better protection than the energy field, its more effective at taking long range hits, which synergizes well with the long range guns on the falcon itself.

Thus if you want to run a falcon, you should take a squad of 5 Dire Avengers, and a guide seer. You can then put the falcon on a backfield objective, and provide fire support. Any fire it draws away from your transports is gravy, holofields are really frustrating for your enemies .

Pathfinders aren't really what you want to be doing here. I know you want to stray away from jet bikes, but they are a lot better than Rangers. I like packs of 4
3 Gu Bikes + Warlock- cannon, spear, embolden
comes out to 129 points, gives you a 3+ armor save, a 3+ cover save from turbo boosting, and up to 24 inch movement for snagging objectives, and a re rolling leadership to stay on the board. They even bring more fire power with some s6 and 9 for shooting at tanks if you are in a pinch, and their twin linked catapults will likely do more damage than the long rifles. Its just a solid unit that you'll find contributes far more to the game than pathfinders could ever dream of. Especially since its fast enough to keep up with your mech army and not get isolated and caught by the enemy.

Finally, since you are only taking 1 squad of Fire Dragons, its a good idea to take 2-4 bright lances for dealing with high AV targets. Nothing can foil your battle plan then the enemy getting lucky and taking down your dragons and not having a back up plan to deal with a raider.

Good luck with your list construction

All good advice above. But from me, i don't think you need a transport for the Scorpions, if you give them shadowstrike then they can get close to the enemy without a transport. The points saved on the WS should be used to get another fire prism, you know what they say, two big lasers are better than one

Based on what was posted and some ideas of my own I have modified my last list as follows.


Farseer [145]
-Runes of Warding
-Runes of Witnessing
-Spirit Stones
-Doom
-Guide

10 Striking Scorpions***(GEQ) [332]
-Exarch
-Scorpion Claw
-Stalker
-Wave Serpent
-Twin-Linked Missle Launcher
-Shuriken Cannon
-Spirit Stones

10 Howling Banshees***(MEQ) [332]
-Exarch
-Executioner
-Acrobatic
-War Shout
-Wave Serpent
-Twin-Linked Missle Launcher
-Shuriken Cannon
-Spirit Stones

6 Fire Dragons [206]
-Wave Serpent
-Twin-Linked Scatter Laser
-Spirit Stones

6 Fire Dragons [206]
-Wave Serpent
-Twin-Linked Scatter Laser
-Spirit Stones

10 Dire Avengers [292]
-Exarch
-Two Shuriken Catapults
-Bladestorm
-Wave Serpent
-Twin-Linked Missile Launcher
-Shuriken Cannon
-Spirit Stones

10 Dire Avengers [292]
-Exarch
-Two Shuriken Catapults
-Bladestorm
-Wave Serpent
-Twin-Linked Missile Launcher
-Shuriken Cannon
-Spirit Stones

3 War Walker Squadron [180]
-Scatter Laser
-Scatter Laser

Fire Prism [160]
-Shuriken Cannon
-Holo-Field

Fire Prism [160]
-Shuriken Cannon
-Holo-Field

TOTAL [1973]

This gives me the double Fire Prism, 2 squads of streamlined Fire Dragons and took out the Rangers which I agree were not quite mobile enough. Now you mentioned the Striking Scorpions were not adding much to the list that isn't being taken care of by the small arms fire. Originally they were mounted to be swappable with the Howling Banshees. The Banshees can't quite footslog so they would still need the Wave Serpent. Is there something else you recommend running in place of the Scorpions and Banshees? I figured having something capable of doing some damage in CC would be a good bet. I ran some numbers and if I drop the Wave Serpent for the Scorpions and have them Infiltrate I can squeeze in a 4 man Guardian Jetbike team as listed as well as a jetbike for the Farseer so he isn't waddling around on his own. That doesn't fix the problem with the Scorpions being redundant though so any added input on the list changes are greatly appreciated.

You could find the points and field a Seer council on jetbikes? I've found so far that 5 fire dragons are fine for instance and I run the vehicles as basic as possible.

I like running scorpions outflanking in a WS too. They don't fair too good against MEQ obviously unless you get lucky or doom the squad they're going for first but the transport means you can be selective where they go in relation to which table edge you role.

Howling banshees mounted in a star engined serpent is on the cards next once I've painted them.

your new list is starting to look better.

Right now you have 4 elite choices. You're going to have to pick 3. I would recommend dropping the Scorpions. Banshees at least can engage targets that small arms have trouble with thanks to power weapons.

You should also get some more troops. A good rule of thumb is 1 troop per 500 points, otherwise you'll find yourself quite out gunned. With the points saved from dropping the scorpions outright, I'd either get a third Avenger squad or a storm guardian squad in a serpent.

Don't worry about a lack of cc. You are playing Mech Eldar, we are very fast, but don't have transports we can assault out of. Often times you'll be better off not bringing ANY close combat units. If you don't feel comfortable with this then I recommend Banshees as dedicated cc, but you definitely don't need more than one squad of close combat specialists, its just not points efficient.

You're farseer should be chilling with a squad of Avengers, guiding them and dooming their target.

The new list is illegal as it contains 4 Elite units.

He's aware of that. They're marked either MEQ or GEQ and will field whatever is appropriate.

Vet Sgt Ezekiel wrote:He's aware of that. They're marked either MEQ or GEQ and will field whatever is appropriate.

Okay, now I understand.
I'd eventually drop the Prisms' holofields and the 2nd weapons on the Serpents.
This should free enough points to add either an Autarch (for bolstering reserve rolls)
or 5 Pathfinders.

that makes sense then. I do disagree with that sort of list building on principle though, as I prefer to make a single all comers list for all my opponents, makes things more interesting, and makes me a better player. list tailoring is kinda lame =(

I still think you are dangerously low on troops. 2 troops at 2000 points will put you severely on your back foot in objective based games. 3 is the bare minimum you should be running at this points level, unless your group only plays kill point games take some more troops.

akaean wrote:that makes sense then. I do disagree with that sort of list building on principle though, as I prefer to make a single all comers list for all my opponents, makes things more interesting, and makes me a better player. list tailoring is kinda lame =(

Is that from a tournament playing perspective? I find it more interesting having choice and its more interesting playing the same opponent but a different list. otherwise its just fancy (?) chess

I have to agree with Akaean you need more troops because if you happen to play an objective game you are going to have to pretect your troops like they are the crown jewels. Pathfinders are good for objective games because you can plop them down on an objective in the backfield to hold it and fire on you opponent from 2+ cover if your smart. I don't know much about prisms I dont use them all I know is thier range is STUPID big seeing as how you have a falcon and fire dragons in your list I would remove the prisms and roll War walkers because they have a good range and weapon spread most of which can pop tanks (Like I said though thats just my opinion). You seem to want a mech list so war walkers won't be keeping up with your other guys but the fact that they are walkers probably wont matter because they are going to be able to hit anything within 42" on the table as long as they move 6" during thier movement phase(54" if you roll EML's on them). Then if you have points left over maybe spring for a Guarudain Defender squad with a scatter platform.

Pretty solid list. A few suggestions:

1) Upgrade to Uldrad. He's awesome and is a major bonus if you're not taking the Farseer on jetbike approach.

2) Scorpions are typically way better than Banshees, even against MEQ. They have a better armor save, higher str, and more attacks, which can easily make up for the lack of a power weapon. Plus, among many players "list tailoring" is akin to cheating, so you'll always need to get your opponents permission to use one or the other. I'd suggest dropping the Banshees option entirely.

3) The Scorpions don't need a WS. They can outflank and a WS isn't an assault vehicle, so you'll typically not even move onto the board with them inside it.

4) Drop the Scorpion Claw. Scorpions main strength is killing an enemy unit before it has a chance to fight back. The Claw works against that. Try a Biting Blade. A quick comparison of the Exarch on a charge Claw: A=4, S=6, I=1, power weapon Blade: A=4, S=5 to 8, I=5. The Blade almost always comes out on top.

5) If you need some points, drop the Dragons to 5 each. Even a squad of 5 Dragons can reliably take out any vehicle you need them to.

6) Don't upgrade the Fire Prisms. The Cannons aren't really needed. Holo-fields can be useful, but I actually run them naked and find that to be sufficient.

I never thought having a list made to suit fighting a particular army was underhand or even frowned upon. I can see the point in a tournament list but is this also not cool for normal games?

Good sell on the scorpions. Maybe I just needed more than six to take on a marine tac squad! I think I'll try infiltrating some more also.

Would 2x Farseers not be more flexible than Eldrad?

Eldrad is like 1.8 Farseers. People tend to forget he has Divination as well which *can* have a great effect on the game.

However, I'm not really invested in this thread enough to know whether or not he should or shouldn't use them.

I have to throw my lot in with Akaean on list building. Building an all-comers list is the only way to roll and not from a 'tournament' perspective, but also just one of fairness. My Ork playing friend would be pretty upset if I just kept tailoring my list to make it less and less 'competition' and more and more frustration for him.

On the list: assault units in vehicles you can't assault out of is a fail tactic. I woud outflank the scorpions (probably using 7-8 max) and take a DA minsquad in a WS for a third troop, or some backfield rangers as Wuest suggested.

Zain60 wrote:

I have to throw my lot in with Akaean on list building. Building an all-comers list is the only way to roll and not from a 'tournament' perspective, but also just one of fairness. My Ork playing friend would be pretty upset if I just kept tailoring my list to make it less and less 'competition' and more and more frustration for him.

.

Hmmmm, that's contradictory saying changing my melta for flamers etc against say Orks the day before a game to optimise my list against Orks takes the competition away. If anything it makes my anti mech list better for hordes which is sensible. Granted changing your list at the table after reading your opponents list is underhand. It kind of defeats the idea of the game always running an optimised all comers list as it'll be boring producing pretty much the same list all the time.

I very much doubt anyone who I play/will play at some point locally will be annoyed if I play him with a list that presents a viable strong tailored challenge to his/her army.

I actually am in favor of banshees rather than scorpions. There are a few reasons for this which I will now enumerate.

The way banshees work is that they hang out in a wave serpent which flies along with your troop transports. Since you're troops will be Dire Avengers, there is a lot of short ranged anti infantry fire power. Sometimes enemies units- especially fast ones- will wander over and attempt to shoot / kill your dire avengers. When this happens the Banshees disembark 2inches, move 6, fleet d6 then charge said problematic squad.

1) Banshees have fleet, when you are charging from a stationary wave serpent the extra d6 is a huge boost to the squads threat range

2) Banshees always go first. Yes Scorpions have initiative 5, but honestly thats not impressive anymore as many cc threats are initiative 5 or 6. Lords, Demonnettes, Genestealers, Furious Charge / MoS MEQ. There are so many scary cc threats that go simultaneous or faster than scorpions, which banshees will inevitably deal with better

3) the rise of FnP. This is the real reason that banshees are ahead. These newfangled codexes are HUGE fans of giving scary things FnP like its candy. The rule itself is ridiculous makes small arms fire cry and Banshees ignore it. Take those silly Sparkle Marines, can you even imagine what furious charging 3+ 4+ fnp units are going to do to a squad of Scorpions... it wouldn't be pretty. Banshees at least always go first, and they ignore both the armor and the extra 4+.

4) outflanking is not great in a mech list. Outflanking causes your opponent to not deploy his backfield units on the edge. This buches all your enemies big guns in the middle of the board, making it very difficult for you to isolate and kill a flank- which is how Mech eldar play.

In sumation, while scorpoins might be just as good vs a vanilla tac squad, Banshees can engage targets that Bladestorming Dire Avengers can't shoot to death. Banshees will be better in a mech list until striking scorpions can claim the same.

akaean wrote:
3) the rise of FnP. This is the real reason that banshees are ahead. These newfangled codexes are HUGE fans of giving scary things FnP like its candy. The rule itself is rediculous makes small arms fire cry. Banshees ignor it. Have you read the Blood Angel's codex? can you even imagine what furious charging 3+ 4+ fnp units are going to do to a squad of Scorpions... it wouldn't be pretty. Banshees at least always go first, and they ignore both the armor and the extra 4+.

That's actually a great point! My playgroup hasn't evolved to the spam of FnP, so I tend to overlook it. But, if you find yourself against FnP armies, you definitely need Banshees!

akaean wrote:

4) outflanking is not great in a mech list. Outflanking causes your opponent to not deploy his backfield units on the edge. This buches all your enemies big guns in the middle of the board, making it very difficult for you to isolate and kill a flank- which is how Mech eldar play.

Your other reasons had great merit, including the one about the abundance of FNP these days. Outflanking scorpions don't fit that role as essentially they do in combat what DAs do from shooting - anti-infantry.

However, this one (4) is a fallacy. I don't mean to be condescending but you pretty much made the case for outflanking, then disregarded it. If the enemy bunches up and stays off of edges, then things like Fire Prisms become that much more deadly, and your ability to get clear shots on your enemy is increased slightly, while their ability to maneuver around and respond to your movement and firing is stifled while they are likely jamming up their parking lot.

Secondly, if they don't care much about your scorpions and choose not to play that game, then you roll in and hurt them for it.

In conclusion, that statement was really off-base, but I have to say I agree that if you don't want to outflank, banshees have definitely become much more desirable in the age of FNP, furious charge, etc etc. I will stress, the ONLY way to run them is in a counter-assault role. Trying to position for a clean assault where you aren't assaulted is extremely hard with scorpions and even banshees.

Also, almost everyone has a doomseer these days. Doom makes banshees truly scary. Do I think the list needs them? No. But they will come to use when you face assault armies.

I suppose you raise several valid points, however I would like to say that personally, my life is nearly always better if my opponent is spread out across his deployment zone- that way I can focus 90% of my army onto 50% of theirs with Eldar's awesome mobility.

I've found prism shooting to be irregular at best and doesn't really change much depending on how my opponent deploys.

This is why I dislike the dynamic of outflanking scorpions, it encourages my opponents to pursue a style of play that I find harder to deal with when I play mech eldar. I imagine this ability would be far more effective in a wraith host list, where the scorpions serve to funnel the enemy into the advancing Avatar, Harlies, and Wraithlords.

Yes, if you're slow-moving like a wraith army it could be very beneficial to throw scorpions at the flanks. However, I've seen them used very effectively several times in a mech list.

The randomness is great. It keeps them guessing and keeps it dangerous to try and keep inside cover from the barrage of Eldar fire.

As far as this list goes, I think he's better off using Banshees if he's not going to outflank. I tried that Scorpion in a Serpent crap for 5 months or so and although I got good at it, it's like being good at a sport no one watches. It's pretty pointless when you time/space that serpent so either they destroy it and you assault them, or you drop out at JUST the right point to set up for a CA. It's just not aggressive and scorpions are not well-played by timid folk.