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So I've been having some trouble bringing my Dark Elves up to speed in 8th edition, but I think this list might do pretty well.

Supreme Sorceress - Lv.4, Pendant of Khaeleth, Focus Familiar, Dark Pegasus - 370
Sorceress - Lv.2, Seal of Ghrond - 165
Death Hag - Cauldron of Blood, BSB - 225

20x Crossbowmen - Shields, Banner, Musician - 235
20x Crossbowmen - Shields, Banner, Musician - 235
20x Corsairs - Sea Serpent Standard - 235
5x Harpies - 55

21x Witch Elves - Banner of Murder - 245
5x Cold One Knights - 135
5x Cold One Knights - 135
7x Shades - 112

Hydra - 175
Hydra - 175

Total: 2497


What do you think?

From what I gather running double hydras is a cheesy move and may get you boned on comp.

I'd say drop the corsairs, take dark riders, drop a hydra and take another elite infantry or chariot.

Are CO knights good enough to have 2 units? Not much experience with them. Being far from the BSB makes stupidity a liability right?

stupidity with Ld9 isn't a huge risk. Not sure I'd ever take 2 units though.

aerethan wrote:From what I gather running double hydras is a cheesy move and may get you boned on comp.

I'd say drop the corsairs, take dark riders, drop a hydra and take another elite infantry or chariot.

We don't really have comp around these parts, and even if we did I think any major boning would be from the 7th edition stigma around Hydras. While the people I play with aren't unfriendly, the lists are not soft. They find something that works and use it. Do you not feel that with 2500 points on the table you cannot handle two hydras? There are plenty of multi-wound or initiative test spells and weaponry to take care of these guys. One purple sun or pit of shades and it's game over for the Hydra, not to mention Warp Lightning Cannons and the like.

I'm pretty iffy on the Corsairs. I have no qualms with dropping them, but I do wonder how Dark Riders would be a better choice. In the few games I have run with them, they seem pretty needless. Shades can get to War Machines faster and are just as survivable (meaning, not at all). I think one unit of Dark Riders might be nice as a harassment unit, but doubt I'd go for two and that still leaves Core necessity.

I've had pretty good luck with my Cold One Knights, nearly always more luck than with a Chariot. Nobody likes Cauldron-blessed Knights running into them. What elite infantry would you bring? Black Guard aren't nearly as good as they were before and Executioners are even worse than they were in 7th.

I only recommend the dark riders as you'd need the points for comp and they at least offer 10 shots if you take RXB's. Then throw a magic banner on crossbowmen to meet the last points for comp.

How find you the witch elves?

@ aerethan: Repeater crossbows can't take magic banners. Only spearmen can.

@ Kirbinator: Like the list. I've been impressed by Cold One Knights and your cauldron has plenty of places to provide a useful boost. Knights with an extra attack or Witch Elves/Corsairs with killing blow or ward could be real nice...

aerethan wrote:How find you the witch elves?

Well, they're fantastic at mowing down light or medium infantry and everyone's using mass infantry nowadays. I'd keep them to 14 models, but I invariably lose a few by the time they hit combat. Being I6 they go before pretty much anyone so the only things that really threaten them are spells and shooting. Tossing the 5+ ward save on them from the Cauldron helps out a bit, as does giving them another set of attacks when the need arises. I think I'm going to try to make room for a Musician for them so they can reform to 5x4+1 when attacking monsters and such that don't fill up that 7-person line.

What lores do you plan to run?

I'm not too sure about which Lores to run. Death has some fantastic spells, but Shadow's Hexes look like they can be pretty nasty when applied correctly. Big-bad scary unit of S5 Minotaurs coming your way? Well now they're S2-4, a little more manageable. Lowering the toughness on things being pincushioned by crossbowmen looks AMAZING. Is it Shadow that also has Mindrazor? S8 Witches and Shades fills me with such joy.

I'd probably go with standard Dark magic on the Lv.2 for the low casting values and some of the spells are still great at what they do.

Kirbinator wrote:I'm not too sure about which Lores to run. Death has some fantastic spells, but Shadow's Hexes look like they can be pretty nasty when applied correctly. Big-bad scary unit of S5 Minotaurs coming your way? Well now they're S2-4, a little more manageable. Lowering the toughness on things being pincushioned by crossbowmen looks AMAZING. Is it Shadow that also has Mindrazor? S8 Witches and Shades fills me with such joy.

I'd probably go with standard Dark magic on the Lv.2 for the low casting values and some of the spells are still great at what they do.

Shadow is the one with Razor yeah. Shadow does DE a boatload of good. I hear the meta is more used to Metal on the Lv 2 but I havent checked the spells for it out yet.
I want to try cast razor on my spearmen when ever someone thinks I am just throwing a crappy unit into them.

I really push that you should at least give shadow a try first.
Plus my fav combo has to be getting Razor off then Word of pain on the same unit (edit: on the same unit im charging). Especially if you are using Executioners or Black Guard or against a unit which always strikes first.

syanticraven wrote:
Shadow is the one with Razor yeah. Shadow does DE a boatload of good. I hear the meta is more used to Metal on the Lv 2 but I havent checked the spells for it out yet.

The reason most DE players take metal is that it helps us deal with armor. The direct damage spells are mean to things like STanks, Chaos Knights etc and Plauge of Rust is just mean when you combined that with our str 3 ap crossbows.

I wouldn't say most DE players; Shadow and Death (along with Dark) seem to be the favorites I see. But then, I usually also see big blocks of Exes or COK to take on the high-armor stuff. If you are forgoing those two, then Metal might be a nice thing to have.

The problem I came into with my own list personally was my CoKs, I only have 5 like yourself,(well 6 if you include my attached character) and if they opponent gets lucky I run, killing my standard off and leaving me with 4.

Id say my list packs a nice punch but I my CoKs need more staying power.

I love CoKs though they do me well. I use them to tear up the gunners/crossbowmen or run head first into empire knights. (have no experience with other knights)

Just got done with Da Grand Waaagh, a few notes on how certain units performed:

CoKs x10 w/ full command and banner of murder - was planning on this being my answer to high armor, only I faced 2 orc players, daemons, and the lizards and brets also. They failed a charge against the brets (needed a 6 on dice), then were charged by two knights units and were promptly wiped. against the orcs, one game a unit of 40 black orcs were waaaghed to 1 inch in front of them, they couldn't stand and fight, couldn't get away, so sac'd them to tie up the unit. The other orc player they were caught up in a unit of 50+ night goblins the whole time. Can't remember them against the daemons, and against the lizards they got boned by deployment, placed on the other corner of the table than where the battle was, with a river in front of them, they never made it to combat. Over, wasn't impressed, they always seem great on paper and when I make a battle plan, but always under-perform, which is a shame as they were my favorite unit to paint.

I'd keep the corsairs, especially if you go shadow. Mindrazor on these guys makes them insane! Dropped a bloodthirster in one round. They are a graet unit to use as a flex, to either run as a hammer or anvil.

As far as lore of shadows goes, I will never leave home without it. The withering + two units of 20 RXB is just plane awesome. All of the hexes come in handy in any type of scenario. (like when I made S2 T1 bloodletters!)
Haven't tried lore of metal, though it would be a nice solution to high armor, slap it on a lvl 2 with ToF and PoK for 185 points (I prefer the 4+ ward on the general, since there's so many ways of dealing wounds with no S value).

And as for the dual hydras, I ran them, and asked every opponent how they felt about them. None of them felt they were overpowered. Only one of the OnG players thought they were scary, but that was because both of them went into combat with a single night goblin unit. My comp from opponents was something like 19/25. Are hydras still overpowered? Totally, but every army has something that is just as equally messed up.

I don't have experience with a CoB, but I can tell you I plan on using one (once i get one converted, don't like the GW one). I can't recall how many times those buffs would have been nice.

Vulcan wrote:I wouldn't say most DE players; Shadow and Death (along with Dark) seem to be the favorites I see. But then, I usually also see big blocks of Exes or COK to take on the high-armor stuff. If you are forgoing those two, then Metal might be a nice thing to have.

Sorry for the confusion, I mean most who take Metal - not that everyone does. Then again I think the 2nd lore really depends on the local meta (at my FLGS there are at least 4 WoC armies) so I need to take metal because I don't run 10 CoK or Executioners.

I'm a little confused about Executioners and why many people suggest using them to deal with armor. They aren't terribly expensive points-wise, but they're not exactly cheap either. Are people just tossing a block of them at things with armor and hoping enough live to strike back to make a difference?

Well they can get the AP banner and the ASF banner to cancel out ASL. Costs quite a bit though

kenshin620 wrote:Well they can get the AP banner and the ASF banner to cancel out ASL. Costs quite a bit though

Last I knew they could only get the ASF banner if they took a Death Hag BSB, meaning the naked frenzied chick that can be lured out and mislead by something pretty scrawny. I dunno, seems less than optimal.

Kirbinator wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:Well they can get the AP banner and the ASF banner to cancel out ASL. Costs quite a bit though

Last I knew they could only get the ASF banner if they took a Death Hag BSB, meaning the naked frenzied chick that can be lured out and mislead by something pretty scrawny. I dunno, seems less than optimal.

As far as the rules go you can give them either banner. To get Both AP and ASF though you would need a Death Hag BSB.

Jake Bake A Cake wrote:

Kirbinator wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:Well they can get the AP banner and the ASF banner to cancel out ASL. Costs quite a bit though

Last I knew they could only get the ASF banner if they took a Death Hag BSB, meaning the naked frenzied chick that can be lured out and mislead by something pretty scrawny. I dunno, seems less than optimal.

As far as the rules go you can give them either banner. To get Both AP and ASF though you would need a Death Hag BSB.

You can do the same thing w/ a Master BSB, then you wont have to worry about the Frenzy from the Death Hag.

~Vryce

Actually I don't think you can. Can't only Khainite characters join Khainite units?

Jake Bake A Cake wrote:Actually I don't think you can. Can't only Khainite characters join Khainite units?

That iss correct. bottom of Pg 43 in a box.

syanticraven wrote:

Jake Bake A Cake wrote:Actually I don't think you can. Can't only Khainite characters join Khainite units?

That iss correct. bottom of Pg 43 in a box.

Thought as much. Therefore the only way to have two magic banners with the executioners to to have a Hag BSB. Though what is the ruling with a frenzy character in a unit. Would it actually charge out of that unit? Seems a tad odd.

Jake Bake A Cake wrote:Thought as much. Therefore the only way to have two magic banners with the executioners to to have a Hag BSB. Though what is the ruling with a frenzy character in a unit. Would it actually charge out of that unit? Seems a tad odd.

You have the option of charging with the whole unit of course, since anything in the Hag's charge range is in the Executioner block's as well, but if you wanted to leave the block behind the Hag would still rush out on her own. Basically it makes the Executioners have the penalty of Frenzy without the benefit of it since there are very, very few times you'd let a BSB run out by herself.

Last I checked, Executioners were unable to take an ASF banner on their own; that was one of the reasons nobody ever took them in 7th. Has this changed?

Kirbinator wrote:

Jake Bake A Cake wrote:Thought as much. Therefore the only way to have two magic banners with the executioners to to have a Hag BSB. Though what is the ruling with a frenzy character in a unit. Would it actually charge out of that unit? Seems a tad odd.

You have the option of charging with the whole unit of course, since anything in the Hag's charge range is in the Executioner block's as well, but if you wanted to leave the block behind the Hag would still rush out on her own. Basically it makes the Executioners have the penalty of Frenzy without the benefit of it since there are very, very few times you'd let a BSB run out by herself.

Last I checked, Executioners were unable to take an ASF banner on their own; that was one of the reasons nobody ever took them in 7th. Has this changed?

They have never been able to have it - its too expensive for them. Which is why they still are terrible in 8th unless you run them right at a steam tank. The BSB will usually only last 1 or 2 rounds if your lucky.

Kirbinator wrote:

Last I checked, Executioners were unable to take an ASF banner on their own; that was one of the reasons nobody ever took them in 7th. Has this changed?

I was sure that they could take a magical banner... Or is it just that the ASF one is too expensive for them?

Casper wrote:The BSB will usually only last 1 or 2 rounds if your lucky.

Shouldn't the BSB be safe until the whole unit is taken care of? Unless of course targetiedwith magic or template weapons.

Jake Bake A Cake wrote:I was sure that they could take a magical banner... Or is it just that the ASF one is too expensive for them?

They can take up to a 25pt banner. ASF is 35.

Jake Bake A Cake wrote:Shouldn't the BSB be safe until the whole unit is taken care of? Unless of course targetiedwith magic or template weapons.

Character-targetting magic, template weapons, and close combat attacks directed at her. She's only safe from randomized shooting.

Ah I see. Didn't have my rule book on me to check. I think the original plan was to have both the ASF banner AND the AP banner in there which would work if I'm not mistaken.

Yeh I forgot about CC attacks directed at her =/ Does make her really vulnerable.. unless you can give her a decent enough ward save somehow. But that's just dumping more points into this unit...

She can get a 5+ from Dance of Doom...about all you can do.