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Ran into a problem. I've played against a monolith before, and with my AT Vendetta/Melta demo vet combo, I can usually immobilize it if nothing else. But now my local group has up the points fielded, the necron player is running two with a destroyer/heavy destroyer escort, necron lord with rez orb, and a token warrior force. My melta's and demo charge can't pen if I deepstrike and my vendetta fielded might knock out one before his destroyer escort rushes up and knocks her out of the sky. My first thought for replacement or complement was a Leman Russ Vanquisher, but the strength 8 won't pen and I'm not sure how the two dice for the pen roll works. Next thought was a Manticore with a 10/4 rocket, but the random barrage roll has me wondering about its durability in one of our longer games and if that 160 pts would be better on something else that being the case. Last was a basilisk, or a trio if I drop the Vendetta/vets. It would require a 6 to pen (if the shot doesn't drift), but it would also cause a great amount of havoc in his destroyer formations, especially if I went with a full squadron. Could go with a second vendetta with nothing in it, but the first was such a to build (still have trouble with the left wing falling off) I don't want to try another so soon.

Eh, days like this I miss my old LR Annihilator.

you cant get the 2d6 from the melta or the vanquisher.

Either lascan spam, s10 or ignore it.

ignoring it is really the best option.

Ignore it. Kill the warriors he's forced to take and everything else. Forcing him to lose via phase is sometimes a lot easier than knocking out the monolith

swiftdraw wrote: and a token warrior force.

While taking down monoliths is more nuianced than simply getting rid of them through phase out, if your opponent is going to give you such an easy phase out number to reach, then yeah, the best way to kill the monolith is to bring a bunch of basilisks and pound his warriors into phase out.

against the 'lith itself, a manticore gives you the best chance, as it can fire multiple templates per shot AT RANGE..the medusa loses out since it doesn't get it's extra pen dice if you use the bunker breacher shell, and the demolisher loses out for me due to the range....

but yeah phase out is the best option UNLESS

you are playing spearhead..we had a recent spearhead tourney where our cron player brought used monoliths, a pylon, and tomb spyders and scarab swarms together with a ctan....nothing with the necron rule, so no phase out..hehehehe..sufficient to say he managed to place second by the end of the day....

Vendetta should be an easy counter to them, 2x of them is roughly the same price and you'll be landing 4.5 hits each turn.

S9/S10 ordanance can also work out simply because you get to roll the 2 dice for penetration which is not removed based on Living Armor.

also, living metal stops "the extra D6 from weapons such as melta", right?

meltabombs don't do S 8 + 1D6 + 1D6, they just do 8+2D6. In the case of meltabombs, there is no "Extra D6", like in the profile for meltaguns and multimeltas, they simply do 2D6.

Ailaros wrote:also, living metal stops "the extra D6 from weapons such as melta", right?

meltabombs don't do S 8 + 1D6 + 1D6, they just do 8+2D6. In the case of meltabombs, there is no "Extra D6", like in the profile for meltaguns and multimeltas, they simply do 2D6.

I think you're right, but even if you are right It's going to end up in the TO making the call and I give the average TO about a 50/50 chance of making the correct call. With 2D6 pen on a melta bomb monoliths stand no chance against IG. Even without melta bombs working IG shouldn't have a problem with necrons.

Manticores are probably best to knock out the monolith, but they work so well against warriors it's probably best to just go for the phase out.

Just gun down the destroyers and heavy destroyers first, ignore the monolith, and everything else should fall like dominoes.

Oohhhh, phase is for troops, not total army? I was under the impression I had to eliminate 75% of his total army. If its just troops, this should be easy barring the spearhead scenario freddieyu pointed out.

My concern with just soloing with the Vendetta is, while I'll probably knock out one monolith my turn, his next turn his destroyers/heavy destroyers would be in range to take her down. And considering all it takes is a mean look to bring down the vendetta, this shouldn't be a hard task for them.

Phase is for 75% of any "necrons" in the army. Not everything is a "necron". Lords, warriors, immortals, destroyers, heavy destroyers, and I think flayed ones are. Pariahs and Tomb Spyders are not. Have to check the codex, but "necron" is listed if a unit is one.

My vote would have to also be to just ignore the monoliths. As IG I would consider taking a bunch of plasma or regular Lemas Russ tanks. Rez Orb can only do so much and if he is rerolling with the Monoliths then he isn't shooting it's template weapon.

Ailaros wrote:also, living metal stops "the extra D6 from weapons such as melta", right?

meltabombs don't do S 8 + 1D6 + 1D6, they just do 8+2D6. In the case of meltabombs, there is no "Extra D6", like in the profile for meltaguns and multimeltas, they simply do 2D6.

ah interesting...

but if I were a TO I'd just rule based on RAI, even if my men sometimes carry meltabombs....hehehe necrons need a break sometimes ya know...

Ailaros wrote:also, living metal stops "the extra D6 from weapons such as melta", right?

meltabombs don't do S 8 + 1D6 + 1D6, they just do 8+2D6. In the case of meltabombs, there is no "Extra D6", like in the profile for meltaguns and multimeltas, they simply do 2D6.

wouldn't this also be true for the leman with the huge non blast tankbuster gun?

seems like we repeat ourselves time and time again... dos no one try and search anymore?

ignore the monolith, shoot the warriors til phase out...

freddieyu1 wrote:
you are playing spearhead..we had a recent spearhead tourney where our cron player brought used monoliths, a pylon, and tomb spyders and scarab swarms together with a ctan....nothing with the necron rule, so no phase out..hehehehe..sufficient to say he managed to place second by the end of the day....

Actually, I'd argue that they phase out immediately. 25% of 0 is 0 after all.

Yes, this is a bit of a dick move to the Necron player. But, that's what he gets for trying to circumvent phase out

(And, in a real game, I'd point this out to the Necron player and let them re-write a list).

Is there something in the phase out rule I'm missing?

Grakmar wrote:

freddieyu1 wrote:
you are playing spearhead..we had a recent spearhead tourney where our cron player brought used monoliths, a pylon, and tomb spyders and scarab swarms together with a ctan....nothing with the necron rule, so no phase out..hehehehe..sufficient to say he managed to place second by the end of the day....

Actually, I'd argue that they phase out immediately. 25% of 0 is 0 after all.

Yes, this is a bit of a dick move to the Necron player. But, that's what he gets for trying to circumvent phase out

(And, in a real game, I'd point this out to the Necron player and let them re-write a list).

Is there something in the phase out rule I'm missing?

in spearhead there is no requirement to get troops...and the rules say you CAN play with just spearhead units...and to be honest we all knew he was coming out with the list, and we were ALL for it, and we allowed it, as we love challenges...and the games were a blast!!!

getting back to topic, I truly believe the days of phase out (as it is written currently) will be coming to an end. Which is good, since the crons do need a boost (and also so my slumbering crons can also wake up)...

Ailaros wrote:also, living metal stops "the extra D6 from weapons such as melta", right?

meltabombs don't do S 8 + 1D6 + 1D6, they just do 8+2D6. In the case of meltabombs, there is no "Extra D6", like in the profile for meltaguns and multimeltas, they simply do 2D6.

Any extra dice rolled for armor pen. Monstrous creatures do the same and they don't roll their 2d6, just 1d6. So the best you get is 1 d6 for armor pen aside ordnance.

so, the thing is that lots of things, like monstrous creatures, chain fists, meltaguns, multimeltas, eviscerators, etc. say in their rules that they "roll an extra D6 for armor penetration". Against these weapons, living metal which "ignores the extra D6 for armor penetration", clearly cancels this ability out.

Meltabombs, on the other hand, do not say they roll an extra D6. Therefore, something that prevents extra D6 rolls don't affect them.

Thats just rules lawyering if you ask me. No other melta weapons work against it, infact it even says in the living metal rule "melta weapons" so saying that melta bombs get 2d6 while ALL OTHER melta weapons get 1 d6 is just trying to cheat. No way would a TO allow that argument, and I know for a fact I wouldnt in a game. Cheating is cheating mate

RAW is RAW, mate.

KingCracker wrote:Thats just rules lawyering if you ask me. No other melta weapons work against it, infact it even says in the living metal rule "melta weapons" so saying that melta bombs get 2d6 while ALL OTHER melta weapons get 1 d6 is just trying to cheat. No way would a TO allow that argument, and I know for a fact I wouldnt in a game. Cheating is cheating mate

and the other weapons that simply "roll 2d6 for penetratoin" like special sniper ammo or the IG tankkiller?

Ailaros wrote:so, the thing is that lots of things, like monstrous creatures, chain fists, meltaguns, multimeltas, eviscerators, etc. say in their rules that they "roll an extra D6 for armor penetration". Against these weapons, living metal which "ignores the extra D6 for armor penetration", clearly cancels this ability out.

Meltabombs, on the other hand, do not say they roll an extra D6. Therefore, something that prevents extra D6 rolls don't affect them.

The rule for living metal itself says "you only ever get str +1d6", ordnance is the only exception as it is not adding 2d6 but picking the highest of 2d6. Nothing gets anything more than str+1d6 for pen against a monolith.

*edit*
It does also say in the rule that you don't get extra pen dice but you are leaving out the additional info that I stated already.

Grundz wrote:

KingCracker wrote:Thats just rules lawyering if you ask me. No other melta weapons work against it, infact it even says in the living metal rule "melta weapons" so saying that melta bombs get 2d6 while ALL OTHER melta weapons get 1 d6 is just trying to cheat. No way would a TO allow that argument, and I know for a fact I wouldnt in a game. Cheating is cheating mate

and the other weapons that simply "roll 2d6 for penetratoin" like special sniper ammo or the IG tankkiller?

the vanquisher doesnt work for that since it says it rolls an extra d6 for armor penetration.

Grundz wrote:

KingCracker wrote:Thats just rules lawyering if you ask me. No other melta weapons work against it, infact it even says in the living metal rule "melta weapons" so saying that melta bombs get 2d6 while ALL OTHER melta weapons get 1 d6 is just trying to cheat. No way would a TO allow that argument, and I know for a fact I wouldnt in a game. Cheating is cheating mate

and the other weapons that simply "roll 2d6 for penetratoin" like special sniper ammo or the IG tankkiller?

Im not arguing about other weapons here as Im not that familiar with them, but the fact that the living metal rule states melta weapons specifically is the reason I brought it up. Str + 1d6, and saying that a melta bomb can still use 2d6 is just silly. Yes that might be what the melta bomb rule says, but against the living metal rule it changes, just like all the OTHER melta weapons. Yes they get 2d6 on all vehicles, unless that vehicle has a special rule (IE Living metal) that changes it as livingin metal does. RAW is RAW indeed

freddieyu1 wrote:

Ailaros wrote:also, living metal stops "the extra D6 from weapons such as melta", right?

meltabombs don't do S 8 + 1D6 + 1D6, they just do 8+2D6. In the case of meltabombs, there is no "Extra D6", like in the profile for meltaguns and multimeltas, they simply do 2D6.

ah interesting...

but if I were a TO I'd just rule based on RAI, even if my men sometimes carry meltabombs....hehehe necrons need a break sometimes ya know...

This, and the rule actually says roll 1D6 for penetration no matter what (i.e. NOT 2D6)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grakmar wrote:

freddieyu1 wrote:
you are playing spearhead..we had a recent spearhead tourney where our cron player brought used monoliths, a pylon, and tomb spyders and scarab swarms together with a ctan....nothing with the necron rule, so no phase out..hehehehe..sufficient to say he managed to place second by the end of the day....

Actually, I'd argue that they phase out immediately. 25% of 0 is 0 after all.

Yes, this is a bit of a dick move to the Necron player. But, that's what he gets for trying to circumvent phase out

(And, in a real game, I'd point this out to the Necron player and let them re-write a list).

Is there something in the phase out rule I'm missing?

Yes you are missing part of the rule. It is something along the lines of "If a Necron army is reduced..."

As it is never reduced, it never phases


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kurgash wrote:

Ailaros wrote:also, living metal stops "the extra D6 from weapons such as melta", right?

meltabombs don't do S 8 + 1D6 + 1D6, they just do 8+2D6. In the case of meltabombs, there is no "Extra D6", like in the profile for meltaguns and multimeltas, they simply do 2D6.

Any extra dice rolled for armor pen. Monstrous creatures do the same and they don't roll their 2d6, just 1d6. So the best you get is 1 d6 for armor pen aside ordnance.

correct, you still get to pick the highest with Ord, but all others are just 1D6 for pen