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PCB were - according to everybody but Therion - one of the clutch units for skaven in 7th, with some pretty startling comp hits available to you for taking more than two small units of them. Now, they've just about completely vanished. For the most part I can see why: enemy strike backs against low WS / T4 / no armor means dead rats, even if the other guy gets mangled, and he can always steadfast down vs the PCB's 0 ranks and then finish them off next turn at his leisure, after their hatred and flails turn off. What PCB's were good at killing (knights, all the various MSU stuff kicking around in 7th) aren't really around at this point either. I3 also means they have to be fairly selective about what they go cuddle with.

What I'm wondering is, is there a use for these things in 8th? Are they relegated to a counter-charge role (which they seem pretty good at, flanking in for annihilation after the enemy has beached itself on a mound of dead-but-steadfasting clanrats) only? Assuming that the optimal number of PCB to take is not 0, what are we looking at, like a min 5? I missed out on them in 7th and am looking to try some new things - my rat ogres are not working - and have a nifty conversion in mind. I was thinking 1 unit of 7, wide enough to get everybody fighting vs most units (or flanks 5+ deep), but still fairly cheap when it comes down to it.

- Salvage

The only time I've seen PCBs in 8th so far, a unit of 7 rear charged my Khorne Lumberjacks, killed 12 of them, but then got murdered by the return swings.

They are incredible beatsticks, but die really, really easily. I see them a decent flankers to rack up the kills on a unit held down by slaves/clanrats, just don't expect them to live.

On a side note, a local here is running a CC skaven list and his unit of 6 ROgres isn't working either. We are starting to think it is that lack of armor, because practically everthing else about them is great.

Really, 6 rogres fair no better? I've run 4 RO w/ MBRO, MM (electro-whip) & PM for a long time now, through two editions ... and I'm just getting sick of saying "annnnd 231 points to you" 9 out of 10 games. I often feel like I'm mis-playing them, but for that points investment I should be able to do stuff besides patiently wait for a flank and pounce. (For the record, I don't really do patiently waiting.) About the only game they did well was an early 8th game where I made some looooong combo-charges and cleaned house ... Ok fine, they were technically tag-teaming with the HPA, alongside which anybody looks awesome cheerleading

But right, PCB. If nothing else, I'm liking that they're cheaper than rat ogres

- Salvage

Yeah, his ROgres go get in a few kills, but then the return attacks just murder them. Granted, he has only been throwing them into front charges so far though. My OK have been out performing them. Although Gut Magic FTW! "F*ck your 2 HPAs charging my front and Queeks Stormvermin flanking chanrging me. That unit of 7 Ironguts is T7 with Regen. "

You need about 12-15 PCB to have them be effective.. But thats a ton of points which makes them not very effective :p

Return attacks make them pretty pointless for 16pts a model

A guy at my FLGS plays a clan pestilens army and uses his PCB's as a flanking unit, so I say yes they have their useful, but its more as a supporting tool, so 5-7 is a good number too have.

With how their leadership works, think of them as pseudo empire detachments to plague monks

They looks cool for a pestilen themed army but rather use their points in slaves or monks

darktau wrote:A guy at my FLGS plays a clan pestilens army and uses his PCB's as a flanking unit, so I say yes they have their useful, but its more as a supporting tool, so 5-7 is a good number too have.

I thought of them as just a support unit too, but in a recent game my opponent's 6 PCB's charged then killed my stegadon in 1 go....doh....the skink crew all died during the T check due to them damn fumes, and he got REALLY lucky with his to wound rolls on the steg...

And then in another game where I used empire, I reduced his unit to 3 models due to shooting, then charged a fully ranked spearman unit into it...fumes killed 5 (damn T checks!!) censers kill more as he struck first, and 1 kill just 1, break, then get run down....doh again..

So yeah I have a healthier respect for them...but as I have started a skaven army too (damn isle of blood set!!!..I have 2 sets of Skaven from these...grrr) I would rather first use other hammer units than PCBs, such as the doomwheel, since even PCBs have to take the T test (albeit will fail only on a 6) when they close ranks during combat, and a bad set of T checks can cripple the unit before the enemy even gets to strike back....

Hate to take this off topic but would you think the T checks are made before or after impact hits, or maybe simultaneously?

HoverBoy wrote:Hate to take this off topic but would you think the T checks are made before or after impact hits, or maybe simultaneously?

Opens Skaven army book, and reads the ff:

"Wounds caused by the fog are resolved before impact hits, issuing challenges, and revealing assassins"....

Checks latest GW FAQ...no contradictions...

So yeah the fog DOES occur before impact hits..makes sense, as the unit that causes impact hits will have to breath through the fog as it charges in...

THX

freddieyu1 wrote:the skink crew all died during the T check due to them damn fumes,

Don't they use the Steggies toughness since the model has mulitiple stats and you use the best? That is what LM players keep telling me whenever their skink riders somehow haul the giant dino out of the Pit of Shades.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:

freddieyu1 wrote:the skink crew all died during the T check due to them damn fumes,

Don't they use the Steggies toughness since the model has mulitiple stats and you use the best? That is what LM players keep telling me whenever their skink riders somehow haul the giant dino out of the Pit of Shades.

Yes good point, the confusion must stem from the skaven FAQ that says to allocate the wounds from censer bearers, but other than that it dosent change the test in any way so the steg being one model takes one test and if failed you roll to see who gets it.

Edit: Also the PoS comment made my day – nice one

Tzeentchling9 wrote:

freddieyu1 wrote:the skink crew all died during the T check due to them damn fumes,

Don't they use the Steggies toughness since the model has mulitiple stats and you use the best? That is what LM players keep telling me whenever their skink riders somehow haul the giant dino out of the Pit of Shades.

Correct, any characteristic tests, where there are differing values, are done on the highest or best value in the combined stat line.

HiveFleet wrote:

Tzeentchling9 wrote:

freddieyu1 wrote:the skink crew all died during the T check due to them damn fumes,

Don't they use the Steggies toughness since the model has mulitiple stats and you use the best? That is what LM players keep telling me whenever their skink riders somehow haul the giant dino out of the Pit of Shades.

Correct, any characteristic tests, where there are differing values, are done on the highest or best value in the combined stat line.

AHA!!! Thanks for the tip folks....so the skinks have breathing tubes then in the howdah..perfect....

Naah the daily task of cleanin out the stegadon's stable makes them restistant

HoverBoy wrote:Naah the daily task of cleanin out the stegadon's stable makes them restistant

hahahaha correct!!!

I have been thinking of the good old censur bearers recently and my woe that they went from glory to suck.

However, one thing pops to mind. They have a rule that they gain ranks and stubborn from being near plague monks. Depending on how that is worded they might be able to leverage large monk units to break opponent's steadfast...Will have to look into it.

They dont gain ranks, they gain the leadership bonus of the ranks due to strength in numbers

Curses

Yea the censur bearers are pretty meh. They can cut through empire troops and skeletons like nobody business for a turn but after that there dead. Couple this with the fact that they cant hold a candle to elite infantry due to the crappy initiative and they are in trouble. In larger units, 16+ they can do some good things but now were up to 250+ pts which is abomination territory.

In general I think points are better spent on rat ogres who ocupy the same slot and do more constient damage over time (though do less damage on the initial hit).

Skaven can get some manner of T reducing spells and effects though, right? Shadow or Death magic at least has some abilities along that line. It might be an annoying thing to have to combo with a unit that expensive, but perhaps dropping a unit's T to 1-2 and then hitting them and having ~60% fall over immediately would be pretty handy vs. all the giant blocks of troops people field.

How many PCBs does it take to get the plague effect? Is 5 enough? Two small gas bombs might be handy in an army to seriously thin out hordes with gas or smack around flankers. (I write this having zero idea how the gas thing works though other than "Before impact attack T tests", so sorry if it is silly.)

Scaven have one spell that reduces T by 1. It helps but that people usually dont let that combo go off unless you have something really big to threaten them with as well.

The gass thing is pretty easy. Anyone touching a model with a censur takes a test at the beginning of combat. Touch a guy and take a test. But only really affects the front rank (and your second rank).

Eh, that's pretty poor then. Even with a T debuff you are only killing the front rank, so max 10 guys, likely 3-5. Bummer. (Well, good for me, not playing Skaven )

Remember when the Skaven book came out and everyone was like "OMG, PCBs R the WINZ!" Well, they needed to be uber good because they knew that no one was going to take them in 8th. They are TERRIBLE. In large part because YOU as the Skaven player, will be taking more T tests then your enemy due to the fact that you have to be deployed in ranks!