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Hey all, for troops like Striking Scorps/Kharandras who are basically melee-only, who can infiltrate/outflank, and who (with Kharandras anyway) get the benefit of the Stealth rule, what is the best way to utilize them as far as deployment and the battle go?

I can think of the following options:

1. Try to infiltrate them in somewhere near the enemy where they will be hidden or at least get a good cover save the first turn. Then bring them in to strike, hopefully with the help of your other incoming troops with fire support or other melee, so they don't get soley targeted and wiped out

2. Set them up to run in behind other infantry or vehicles to take advantage of cover and that way they aren't totally left out to try by themselves.

3. Outflank and hope the enemy has something near the edges, and that your outflank roll gets you the table edge you want.

Obvious targets are guys that are weak in melee with poor armor saves, but if I run 9 scorps with an exarch with scorp claw and kharandras with HIS scorp claw, thats, what 10-ish powerifist hits along with 27 regular scorpion melee hits (and even more if I initiate the charge)? That could cause some damage, right? . Not sure if I'd set them up against a squad of 30 ork boys, but it would be a force to be reckoned with.

I am trying to build an army to optimize the effectiveness of these guys (just for fun more than anything) so if you have any thoughts, let me know.

Thanks!

-Grorx

I usually only run 5 scorps and an exarch with a claw, so usually i infiltrate them into cover within range of my heavy hitters (i.e. reapers) and have the heavy support whittle down the opponent, so by the 2nd or 3rd turn, my scorps can assault them and finish them off. This usually works well against orks.

Ive always outflanked them, there is always something juicy too near a table edge they can pounce on.

If terrain suits it you can also infiltrate Karandras by himself to easily get turn 1 charges (heaps of S8 attacks which auto hit = dead tank). Being by himself makes him very easy to hide out of sight, he is also one of the only 2+ save models in the game with Fleet. Unfortunately you can't give him a small squad of Scorpions for some protection as they slow him down (can't fleet so no first turn charge) and make it very hard to hide them close enough in the first place anyway. I say as long as terrain suits as because ideally you want him to still be in cover at the end of it so you didn't just suicide him first turn (you should be hitting a flank to minimise return fire away).

Powerguy wrote:If terrain suits it you can also infiltrate Karandras by himself to easily get turn 1 charges (heaps of S8 attacks which auto hit = dead tank). Being by himself makes him very easy to hide out of sight, he is also one of the only 2+ save models in the game with Fleet. Unfortunately you can't give him a small squad of Scorpions for some protection as they slow him down (can't fleet so no first turn charge) and make it very hard to hide them close enough in the first place anyway. I say as long as terrain suits as because ideally you want him to still be in cover at the end of it so you didn't just suicide him first turn (you should be hitting a flank to minimise return fire away).

Although using Karandras can seem pretty cool, for first turn assaults, being by himself will ultimatly fail. His 2+ armor save and Eternal Wariior can save him from shooting, but his lack of invulnerable save and his striking at iniative 1 will make him very prone to any weapon that ingnores saves. Statistically speaking, even a 5 man combat squad with power weapon sergeant will inflict 1-2 wounds average. You also have to remember how unlikely it will be to to completly hide your guy. If he can't be completly hidden 12 inches away, then you have to rely on your 1d6 fleet roll, whilch is to risky for a 215 point model

Kharandras: The best tactic to optimize him is simply not to take him and use the points elsewhere. I know he seems awesome, but he simply doesn't work in game. The problem with him is that he strikes at I1 and has no invul save, so MC and anything with power weapons kills him before he has a chance to do anything. He's also a really expensive part of your army and will draw lots of enemy fire, so you need to keep him in a squad to protect him.

Unfortunately, there's no good squad to put him with. Scorpions seem like the obvious choice, but he has fleet and they don't, so you often times need him to break off to launch an assault without them, and in that case he's killed by the higher I enemy and your scorpions get shot and assaulted in your opponent's turn. If you insist on using him, he needs to go with another fleeting CC squad. Banshees or a Guardian Storm squad are your best options, but then he looses his ability to infiltrate or outflank.

All of the Phoenix Lords are overpriced. But Kharandras and Baharoth are so overpriced and under-performing they're not even worth considering. I recommend using him like all the other Phoenix Lords: A cool looking model that "counts as" a regular Exarch, or just decoration on your mini-shelf.

Scorpions: These guys are typically not run in a "competitive" list, but they can still be totally usable. I find that they work best in a full squad (with Exarch) that outflanks. Don't bother with a WS.

They're scary enough that, when outflanking, your opponent will either avoid the table edges, thereby improving your ability to outmaneuver them, or will ignore them, thereby letting you assault a valuable unit of your opponents. They can take out just about any other squad in CC, but avoid stuff with higher I than them (Genestealers) or with FnP. Against Termies, they stand a chance, but it will be a close fight.

Without the ability to fleet, I've found that trying to infiltrate them just doesn't pay off. They end up well in front of the rest of your army and are a priority target, so they take way too many casualties by the time they get into CC, there's not enough of them left to be decisive.

Scorpion Exarch: He's worth the extra points, and giving him the ability to infiltrate/outflank is clearly worth it. However, his weapon upgrades can be pretty harmful. The Scorpion's Claw looks to be the best option (in every other CC squad, a power fist is the way to go), but it's actually the worst. It only upgrades his Str from 4 to 6 (not 8) and it takes away an attack and makes him strike at I1. The main advantage of Scorpions (or any Eldar CC squad) is their high I. You need to do maximum damage to your opponent to remove as many counter attacks as you can. With T3, those counter attacks can be devastating. The minimal Str upgrade and power weapon don't make up for that loss of I.

The upgrade that is worth it is the Biting Blade. He still looses an attack by taking it, and it's not a power weapon, but he still strikes at I. And, you can potentially get higher Str than with the Claw. With 1 hit, you get str 5 (slightly worse), with 2 you equal the claw, and with up to 4 attacks on the charge, you can potentially get to Str 8!

So, either run him with no weapon upgrades to get an extra attack, or with the Biting Blade to get higher str attacks.

You can't put a phoenix lord in any aspect other than his own, so running him with Howling Banshees is not an option. Harlequins can make a nice meat shield for him though, while not slowing him down, and the veil of tears really annoys people and discourages even trying to target them if you hover around the average spotting distance. A friend of mine did this a couple of weeks ago. He wasn't using Kaharandras he had Jain Zar, but by putting it in with a harlequin squad he managed to get move, fleet, charge without ever being shot.

yeenoghu wrote:You can't put a phoenix lord in any aspect other than his own, so running him with Howling Banshees is not an option. Harlequins can make a nice meat shield for him though, while not slowing him down, and the veil of tears really annoys people and discourages even trying to target them if you hover around the average spotting distance. A friend of mine did this a couple of weeks ago. He wasn't using Kaharandras he had Jain Zar, but by putting it in with a harlequin squad he managed to get move, fleet, charge without ever being shot.

Ah, good point. I forgot about about that no joining other aspects part.

Jair Zar is my favorite of the Phoenix Lords, and the only one that border on worth the points, IMO.

I like Maugan too. I'm really surprised he is as cheap (comparatively) as he is. Linking him to a full squad of reapers with a fortune cast on them and sitting in cover is a really mean thing to do. Rerollable cover saves, fearless, and so much firepower it makes me cringe. If anyone gets close enough to threaten assault on the reaper squad Maugan can break off, fleet, and charge in with that beat-stick of his too. One day I might try the Harlequin veil trick with him, but after two games using a borrowed Maugan Ra and the farseer as my HQ, I have noticed all the cringing and second guessing it causes to anybody trying to advance on them. It really depends on the table though for them. Lots of terrain that blocks out line of sight means few opportunities to shoot with your huge points sink, but really that is a problem with the Dark Reapers, not Maugan.

Has anyone tried the Chain Sabers on the Exarch? Thought I might try one out for horde control, but Str 3 attacks that are not powered... :-) Dunno...

In my opinion scorpions are a total waste of points. Get banshees.

pchappel wrote:Has anyone tried the Chain Sabers on the Exarch? Thought I might try one out for horde control, but Str 3 attacks that are not powered... :-) Dunno...

Good point... I would go with the claw, only because it counts as a power weapon AND a shuriken catapult.

space_elf5996 wrote:

pchappel wrote:Has anyone tried the Chain Sabers on the Exarch? Thought I might try one out for horde control, but Str 3 attacks that are not powered... :-) Dunno...

Good point... I would go with the claw, only because it counts as a power weapon AND a shuriken catapult.

Sorry, but the Claw is a downgrade.

The Catapult only gets one extra shot compared to his pistol. And, one extra Str4 Ap5 shot is nice, but it isn't all that amazing.

The Claw is nice because of the power weapon. But, that's really only useful against FnP and units with really good saves. And, against those units, the rest of your scorpions are pretty worthless. If Scorpions get into CC with one of those squads, they're done for. Your exarch striking at I1 with his few Str6 power weapon attacks isn't going to make a difference.

Plus, the Claw is only mediocre against vehicles. Against transports and light vehicles, it works pretty well. But, against Dreads or Heavy Tanks, it can't do much at all. The Biting Blade typically gets much better AP ability, and is more useable in non-vehicle combat.

Giving your exarch a claw just doesn't work with the rest of the squad. Scorpions excel against lightly armored horde units, and to do that, they depend on having a ton of attacks at I higher than your opponent. Giving the exarch a claw works against that goal.

If you want power weapons, go banshees. If you want a million attacks, go scorpions.

Funny enough, put them in a wave serpent. People look at me crazy when I say that, but seriously, put them in a serpent.

They don't have fleet so they can't get first turn charges anyways. So instead, use the wave serpent to place them where they need to be. Turboboost them right into the face of the enemy. Even if the waveserpent is destroyed, the 3+ saves protect the scorpions pretty well. You can move, shoot and assault like normal out of a stationary transport, so after the waveserpent is placed, they become a pain to deal with.

And in the meanwhile? They're immune to bolters, running away, etc.etc..blah blah about mech in this edition.

Seconding serpent. Full unit of Scorpions in a serpent, preferably with Eldrad. I guess you could stick Kharandras in there too.

Chainsabres are awesome.

You know they make you re-roll to hit AND to wound, right? They simply make the squad better perform its purpose.

If you want a bit of versatility, go with the claw or biting blade. If you want to kill 30 Ork boyz, go with chainsabres.

Warboss Gutrip wrote:Chainsabres are awesome.

You know they make you re-roll to hit AND to wound, right? They simply make the squad better perform its purpose.

If you want a bit of versatility, go with the claw or biting blade. If you want to kill 30 Ork boyz, go with chainsabres.

Haha, nice try 'Warboss' Gutrip. Chainsabres are horrible.

Just incase people don't realise why they are bad, you get a whole 5 attacks on the charge in which to employ those rerolls...much of the time you're hitting on 3's so the reroll to his isn't put to heavy use, and Chainsabres are Str3 so the reroll to wound is meh compared to just being Str 4 and wounding easier. And Str 4 is far better if you have Doom.
People often forget the Claw loadout comes with a regular Scorp sword as well which can be used for WS5 Str 4 attacks at I6 with +1 attack for two CCW, when you're fighting Daemons or Kroot or whatever and a Claw isn't optimal. Plus again it has a BS5 Catapult which is of course much better than the silly TL Pistols on the Chainsabres.
The Claw is obviously very nice to have when you're fighting Space Marines etc and leaves other options in the dust.

Dunno, I used the Chainsabers last night... Worked out pretty well, with the 5 attacks I was typically seeing 2 initial misses, so getting the extra hits was nice, and it was against IG so the Str 3 was no problem... Always re-rolling to wound helped because I couldn't always get Doom over there... Mind, I usually use the Biting Blade due to the number of transports and the like...

With the Power fist, I thought it was one of the weapons that specifically prohibited getting the additional attack in HtH unless you had two of them... So, the Claw would cap you at 2 attacks (3 on charge) whether you use the claw or sword... Could be wrong though...

To Clarify:

You do NOT get a bonus attack for 2CCW when you take the Scorpions Claw. Your exarch has 2 special CCW (The Claw and a Scorpion Chainsword). When you have 2 special CCW, you CANNOT use both in the same turn and they do not grant each other the +1 bonus.

But with the claw on the exarch, you still get 3 attacks right, 2 for exarch base and +1 for mandiblasters, right? Which would make it 4 on the charge?

Grorx wrote:But with the claw on the exarch, you still get 3 attacks right, 2 for exarch base and +1 for mandiblasters, right? Which would make it 4 on the charge?

Correct. Mandiblasters are wargear, not a weapon, so you always get their bonus attack.

Using his "default equipment": S4, 4 attacks, 5 on charge
Using Scorpions Claw: S6, 3 attacks, 4 on charge, power weapon, strike last
Using Biting Blade: S5-8 (depending on hits), 3 attacks, 4 on charge
Using Chain Sabers: S3, 4 attacks, 5 on charge, re-roll misses and failures to wound

Re-rolls to wound are better than S4.

The chainsabres let the squad better perform it's purpose therefore an excellent 5pt upgrade.