Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

How to spend 120 points in an otherwise fairly solid list?

My 1850 list looks like this, only I was planning to run Eldrad. Recently I've been considering some small changes. Eldrad's been sitting in the Falcon with his 5 DA friends. However, I noticed that other than a second guide throwing on the Fire Prism next to him, I've not been using him to the extent that his point cost warrants.


The list:

90 Farseer, Guide, Runes of Warding (Falcon-borne)

80 5x Fire Dragons
120 Wave Serpent, TL Shuriken Cannons, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones

130 10x Storm Guardians, 2x Flamers, w/Warlock, Destructor, Singing Spear
155 Wave Serpent, TL Brightlance, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones

152 10x Dire Avengers w/Exarch, Dual Catapults, Bladestorm
155 Wave Serpent, TL Brightlance, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones

60 5x Dire Avengers (Falcon-borne)

208 8x Warp Spiders w/Exarch, Dualspinners, Withdraw

70 Vyper, Scatterlaser, Shuriken Cannon

70 Vyper, Scatterlaser, Shuriken Cannon

190 Falcon, Brightlance, Holo-field, Spirit Stones

125 Fire Prism, Spirit Stones

125 Fire Prism, Spirit Stones

1730 pts

I've considered Yriel to ride in the SG Serpent for the +1 roll on reserves in case I drop my whole army in reserve and detach/monocle of wrath shenanigans, plus it adds bite to that squad as an added benefit. Also, I could just take a regular Autarch with a WJG for hanging out with a fusion gun and his Spider buddies. I don't want to throw points into wargear per se, but also Holo-fields on the Prisms has been a definite possibility. Spirit Stones and Doom on the Seer are a possibility as well. However, those are just my thoughts.

What would YOU do to fill out the points here without making major swaps? The extra models I have are limited:

Autarch (on foot/converted/counts as Yriel)
5x Rangers
2x Warlocks (witchblades)
2x extra Warp Spiders
8x Fire Dragons (inc 2 Pike Exarchs)
4x extra Dire Avengers (inc SS/PW Exarch)

Please keep in mind this army is pretty solid and I'm not making major changes to the squads listed. I just want to know how you'd fill out those 120 points.

I'd add an Autarch in. That gives you an extra meltagun and 5 power weapon attacks in your Spider unit, which add to their portfolio of an amazing ranged attackers with solid tank busting(BS6 melta on Jump Infantry is nothing to scoff at) and average CC unit, plus giving you that extra 1 on reserve rolls.

I suppose it's not a bad idea. I wish I could afford/had the time to add another Wave Serpent in though to put another target on the board. I think I'll playtest an Autarch with WJG, Power Weapon, Fusion gun, add powerblades on the exarch, and drop a spider.

There are plenty of places you can cut points to fit a few more things in actually, you have overdone the upgrades a bit. The Prisms don't need Spirit Stones as they should be hanging back well away from assault units. Everything apart from the Fire Dragon and Flamer Guardian Serpents can also get away with no having Spirit Stones as well.

I definitely wouldn't recommend taking the under slung Cannon on the Bright Lance Serpents though. It makes them too expensive and totally doesn't mesh with the Bright Lance. It also slows you down if you want to use it which limits its use. Its usable on Scatter/Shuriken Cannon Serpents but putting it on a Fire Dragon Serpent is a waste, its almost never going to be firing (Dragons need to get into position) and makes a Serpent that its very likely to die more expensive.

Simply cutting all the under slung Cannons gets you 50 points, which is enough for another Vyper. Given a choice between 5 weapons which I'm unlikely to shoot or a single weapon which I can always shoot (with high mobility) + another vehicle to deal with, to me its a pretty obvious choice.

The Falcon would be far better off with a Scatter Laser + under slung Cannon or EML, having makes the Bright Lance usable, but the other options mesh far better with the Pulse Laser (which is wasted firing at AV14).

Vypers are generally better off running 2 x Shuriken Cannons or just the Scatter Laser. It keeps them cheaper for one thing, but the range difference of the weapons can cause you issues. 2 x Cannons means you quickly move into range then move 6" per turn to fire everything, a single Scatter can always move 12" and keep on firing. With one of each you are stuck somewhere in between.

I do think you are a bit light on anti tank, only a single Fire Dragon unit is a bit risky imo. Adding an Autarch would definitely be a good idea, being able to play the reserves game is always helpful and it gets you another meltagun. I would probably run him with the Storm Guardians, not much point running him the Fire Dragon unit.

Powerguy wrote:There are plenty of places you can cut points to fit a few more things in actually, you have overdone the upgrades a bit. The Prisms don't need Spirit Stones as they should be hanging back well away from assault units. Everything apart from the Fire Dragon and Flamer Guardian Serpents can also get away with no having Spirit Stones as well.

I definitely wouldn't recommend taking the under slung Cannon on the Bright Lance Serpents though. It makes them too expensive and totally doesn't mesh with the Bright Lance. It also slows you down if you want to use it which limits its use. Its usable on Scatter/Shuriken Cannon Serpents but putting it on a Fire Dragon Serpent is a waste, its almost never going to be firing (Dragons need to get into position) and makes a Serpent that its very likely to die more expensive.

Simply cutting all the under slung Cannons gets you 50 points, which is enough for another Vyper. Given a choice between 5 weapons which I'm unlikely to shoot or a single weapon which I can always shoot (with high mobility) + another vehicle to deal with, to me its a pretty obvious choice.

The Falcon would be far better off with a Scatter Laser + under slung Cannon or EML, having makes the Bright Lance usable, but the other options mesh far better with the Pulse Laser (which is wasted firing at AV14).

Vypers are generally better off running 2 x Shuriken Cannons or just the Scatter Laser. It keeps them cheaper for one thing, but the range difference of the weapons can cause you issues. 2 x Cannons means you quickly move into range then move 6" per turn to fire everything, a single Scatter can always move 12" and keep on firing. With one of each you are stuck somewhere in between.

I do think you are a bit light on anti tank, only a single Fire Dragon unit is a bit risky imo. Adding an Autarch would definitely be a good idea, being able to play the reserves game is always helpful and it gets you another meltagun. I would probably run him with the Storm Guardians, not much point running him the Fire Dragon unit.

My prisms don't have fear of assault units - they have fear of getting stunned, and not being able to move with the rest of my army or to reposition for cover. I will just have to disagree with you completely on the whole spirit stones thing. I don't consider them optional on any of my vehicles due to the playstyle of this army, which is highly defensive and mobile.

I can see your point on the underslung cannons, and many people have told me they aren't worth it, however, I have had success with them in games where my relative lack of high ROF would have hurt me, but pretty much sucked in other games like facing battlewagon rush. I haven't yet decided if that's worth the cost or not. Definitely if I take any of them off, the FD squad's underslung is the first to go. Your choice of what to do with those added points is a little off though. Adding another Vyper isn't good for me. 1) I simply can't afford/don't have the time to be buying new units as I said in the post. 2) a third vyper is added to an existing vyper, creating a squadron which I do not want. Secondly, removing cannons off of two vypers and 3 tanks to get 4 scatterlaser shots isn't worth it to me. I playtested the 2x shuricannons, and I decided that there's nothing that setup can do that a SL/SC setup can't do better for 10 point increase. It was a negligible point loss for the increase in range and flexibility to steer clear of short range threats and harass vehicles.

low on anti-tank? When you're packing what I'm packing, 2x fire dragons is redundant 90% of the time. TBH, I rarely have to suicide my dragons because of how much Bright lance action I have. I don't have 12 missile launchers, but I have 2 Twin-linked bright lances, a pulse laser+bright lance with guide, 2 fire prisms, and a fire dragon squad if needed. I have never had a problem stopping mobility or hard targets, ever. Anti-transport, the case could be made that not taking loads of scatterlasers hurts me (which it does some games.. and which is why I have kept the versatile underslungs so long in this list) so there is another thing. This underslung cannon thing is sort of a domino effect in this list. If I take them off, I'd likely have to swap out the lances for more scatterlasers. Then I'm light anti-13+AV, so I have to add another FD squad to really make that work better. This, of course, means I'd have to add another serpent, which I can't do right now (before a tournament).

Yea, I can see the BS6 Melta making a difference, but I don't really need/want a meltagun in the SG squad. I wouldn't run him with a suicide dragon squad either. As I said above, he'll be in the Spider squad hopping around if I take him. Otherwise, I was considering Yriel with the SGs... But I really need to playtest this WJG variant autarch and see if it's really worth it, or if it just makes my squad too expensive for what it does.

On to the Falcon.... The high rate of fire boat not appealing to me. Taking a falcon with all that can be done much cheaper by just taking another serpent with scatter/underslung can't it? I have no idea why anyone uses a falcon for scatterlasers. EML I can see, it meshes well with the range and strength of the PL. However, I consider the increase in cost worth it. Bright Lances that are TL or guided are effective. BLs on vypers or guardian squads are a waste of space and points. This one is permanently guided barring a psychic hood problem.

You have justified your core loadout very well imo.
So now it's a toss up between a Yriel and Pathfinders for me.

I see the main advantages of the big Autarch being able to hold back against the alpha strikers and a bit meatier anti-horde.
Because this essentially has to be an all-comers list there will definitely be times when that will pay off handsomely I would think.
A WJG Autarch would fit and helps with reserves also but his AT and CC features aren't exactly the crown jewels of the force are they?
No, I like the prospect of Yriel if you go with an Autarch.

Now that I've talked it through out loud I'm liking the Pathfinder option a bit better tho I think.

Apart from offering that nasty pinning harassment and MC/IC wounds threat, their campy tactics also totally free up one of your troops Serpents to really mix it up on the field without restraint for fear of missing an objective.
Plus they add another target that is both deliciously tempting and terribly frustrating to dislodge.

Let us know what you decided won't you.

I hadn't really thought through the pathfinder option much. If I took pathfinders, I'd like to have doom to make them especially heinous. I know that a lot of people don't like pathfinders in otherwise mech lists, and I'm not sure they'd fit in this one. However, It'd be a nice objective camper.

Well, I've had personal success with Spiders + Autarch combo. In my recent game against a Wagon rush, I arrived from reserve on Turn 2 and wrecked one before it got a chance to move with the Autarch fusion gun, then whipped back under cover and my friend had to expend his Waaagh to get to me, which lost him 2 turns during which I was blasting away from the other side of the table with my Prisms/Serpents/Warwalkers.

Basically, even though they died gloriously in Turn 3, they won me the game before it had a chance to properly start. Of course, under normal circumstance, non-fleet opponents could not possibly assault the Spiders at all, making them a terrifying nuisance to anything 'cept a 'Lith. I don't know, I like this combo very very much so far.

But the Pathfinder squad seems pretty useful too, against some opponents and they're a scoring unit, so that's their advantage over the Autarch. And they can help with the transport-heavy lists, which your list might normally struggle with.

Yea, I do struggle against large quantities of transports, which the spiders and vypers are there to handle-usually very well. I think I like the WJG option much better than just attaching to a serpent squad.

I think I'll drop a spider, go with 7 and add him in with the fusion gun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
93 Farseer, Guide, Runes of Warding, Singing Spear

125 Autarch, Warp Jump Generator, Power Sword, Fusion Gun, Mandiblasters

80 5x Fire Dragons
120 Wave Serpent, TL Shuriken Cannons, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones

130 10x Storm Guardians, 2x Flamers, w/Warlock, Destructor, Singing Spear
155 Wave Serpent, TL Brightlance, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones

152 10x Dire Avengers w/Exarch, Dual Catapults, Bladestorm
155 Wave Serpent, TL Brightlance, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones

60 5x Dire Avengers

196 7x Warp Spiders w/Exarch, Dualspinners, Powerblades, Withdraw

70 Vyper, Scatterlaser, Shuriken Cannon

70 Vyper, Scatterlaser, Shuriken Cannon

190 Falcon, Brightlance, Holo-field, Spirit Stones

125 Fire Prism, Spirit Stones

125 Fire Prism, Spirit Stones

1846 pts

Essentially that would be a prototype to playtest. I'll also try without mandiblasters so I can throw on Runes of Witnessing at some point. Probably better than one more power weapon attack.

Don't remember the last time I saw a 1500+ list that didn't run Doom.
Are you convinced those chin cannons and/or Prism stones are really worth giving up all those rerolls?

Otherwise a very cool list. Like it a lot.

I don't find that doom really helps that much when my Farseer is babysitting a Falcon. He is often out of range of juicy targets so I started taking just a Guideseer instead.

I used to take the full fledged double runed, guide/doom seer with a spear and he's wasted on my tactics. It allows me to fit more into the list.

Also, I find 10 guys bladestorming can most of the time obliterated anything short of a 30 man boyz squad without guide/doom. Anything that could live through a normal bladestorm is probably going to be a bit harder to deal with than just adding doom... so... after a lot of thought, I took it out.

I'd actually suggest trying to get a 2nd Farseer in there. Having one hang out to keep guide on the Falcon is definitely nice, but you'd get a major advantage by taking a Guide+Doom Farseer to ride up with the 10man DA squads and help them out.

Grakmar wrote:I'd actually suggest trying to get a 2nd Farseer in there. Having one hang out to keep guide on the Falcon is definitely nice, but you'd get a major advantage by taking a Guide+Doom Farseer to ride up with the 10man DA squads and help them out.

That's an option I'd consider. It would allow me to just run the 75 pt guideseer and move the DAs around as necessary.