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Figured I'd give this it's own thread. Can Throgg attack normally if he uses his breath weapon in close combat? Throgg has the following special rule:

Copius Vomit: Instead of attacking normally, Throgg can inflict D6 Strength 5 hits with no armour saves allowed. This attack is magical. Furthermore, once per game, Throgg can use his vomit as a breath weapon that inflicts S5 hits with nor armour saves allowed.

Here's nos reply from the last thread so it doesn't have to be repeated:

nosferatu1001 wrote:The breath weapon is not a vomit attack (fluff wise maybe, but ruels wise it isnt) so you get both his 2D6 hits breath weapon AND his normal attacks.

I'm using Throgg, but I think since it says "Throgg can use his vomit as a breath weapon" that means the breath weapon is still his "copius vomit" attack, and so he could not attack normally if he uses it in combat.

The problem with the wording is that in 7th edition, breath weapons couldn't be used in combat. So this situation would never have come up!

However, I would also say, that if someone wants to take the full attacks along with the breath weapon in close combat, then the breath weapon attack wouldn't be magical (since that is also in the first section of the paragraph).

Thoughts?


Edit: A follow-up question would be does Throgg (or normal trolls) get to stomp when they vomit? I would say yes, since it says "instead of attacking normally". So they forgo the attacks on their profile, but still get to stomp, since that is a separate ability not listed on their profile and so is not a "normal" attack.

Yes and Yes.

The "furthermore" means he may use it as a breath weapon once per game. This has nothing to do with his "regular attacks". Using the copious vomit AND his breath weapon in one combat round is AWESOME!

I guess that's where the "he gets his normal attacks" argument would lead.

But you do know that would mean he'd get 3D6, strength 5 hits, with no armor saves allowed, and at least one of the D6's being magical attacks.

I don't think that's reasonable, but obviously I'm looking for what the wording supports. Since they're both called vomit attacks, I don't think you can reasonably do both at once? And since they're both under the "Copius Vomit" heading, I'm on the side of him not getting his normal attacks when he vomits as a breath weapon.

And if that were the case the "this attack is magical" would also apply to the breath weapon? I think...

It would also imply that you could only use the entirety of Copious Vomit once per game, which is not the case.

I think it is relatively clear that the breath weapon is in addition to normal attack/vomit choice and is not magical.

Look at it this way - you agree that you could use it as a breath weapon in the shooting phase and then attack normally right? Why wouldn't you be able to do the same in the close combat phase?

Well, it wouldn't be only once per game on the normal vomit, since that phrase comes after the description of the "normal" part.

Hmm. I think I am starting to agree with what you're saying strictly RAW. That interpretation helps me, of course... but as I'm using him in a friendly escalation league to make my troll army legal, I'm not sure how well that will go over...

I'm with RiTides on his interpretation. I wouldn't argue it if someone wanted to play it for both in one turn, but if using Throgg myself, I would use the less favorable interpretation.

RZ

The rule for the breath attack is in addition - in fact, that is a synonym for the word furthermore.

paraquote- "Throgg can vomit instead of his regular attack. In addition, he can use a breath attack once per game."

They are two separate bonuses he gets from having such awesome vomit. In no way is the wording conditional.

It's no more unusual or ridiculous than a dragon getting its regular attacks as well as its breath attack.

Hydras can do exactly the sasme thing, and are hideous because of it...

I see the logic, but you don't think the phrase "Throgg can use his vomit as a breath weapon" makes the earlier parts of the paragraph apply here as well?

Again, this has to be stretched, since in 7th a breath weapon couldn't be used in combat. However, one would think (RAI territory, cover your eyes ) that since it is his vomit attack, the "Instead of attacking normally" and "This attack is magical" would still apply.

I know it's a stretch, but it says it's a vomit attack, and vomit in close combat takes the place of his regular attacks. It's like one of those logic circles (so easily abused, I know):

-Vomit attacks are instead of regular attacks in CC
-Breath weapon is a vomit attack
-Breath weapon is instead of regular attacks in CC

Proceed to poke holes in my shady logic but I think RZ is right, and as I'm using this in a friendly setting, I'll probably go with the "instead of" route. It was already a concession for them to let me use Throgg, since without my army they'd have banned named characters (as it is they only banned lord-level named characters)

No, as it is a fluff part of text (it doesnt matter what it is, it is in game terms a breath weapon).

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, as it is a fluff part of text (it doesnt matter what it is, it is in game terms a breath weapon).

Actually the part where Throggs vomit is explained has no fluff part it's under special rules, and everything RiTides has quoted so far is from there.

That being said he should get his once per game breath weapon and his attacks, such is the RAW for breath weapons, the "furthermore" part merely explains that throgg gets a breath weapon in addition to his regular vomiting capabilities.

But RiTides, two points:

A) Breath weapons in the BRB specifically state that they are an additional attack.

B) Your explanation would mean that Throgg couldn't attack the turn he used his breath weapon as a shooting attack, which I think we all see is clearly wrong.

But you do know that would mean he'd get 3D6, strength 5 hits, with no armor saves allowed, and at least one of the D6's being magical attacks.

Part of Throg's natural beauty.)

We play it up here that he gets normal attacks, and can choose once a game to add in the breath weapon. This is exactly what other models with a breath weapon can do.

Edit: ninja'ed! By mikhaila, whose beautiful troll army puts mine to shame

Will have a think on the excellent arguments posted above... thanks guys

I did learn something from the exchange though, for sure. That the breath weapon isn't magical

Right- if it's not being treated as a vomit according to the first part of the rules, it's not magical.

You guys have pretty much convinced me! Which makes Throgg a big, big bully...!

Still remains to be seen how it will be played around here, but I've been won over on the RAW.

RiTides wrote:RWhich makes Throgg a big, big bully...!

He's the king after all

Off topic (i.e. no real bearing on Throgg), but relevant to RiTides army- this just in from the new FAQ:

Page 60 – Trolls, Troll Vomit
Change “[...]in base contact with an enemy model[...]” to
“[...]that is able to fight or make a supporting attack[...]”

Time for 6 wide trolls to vomit from the third rank. Now that's projectile vomit!

You beat me to it Red Zeke!!!

Thats some nasty vomit

Thats just sick!
What someone had to say it

I suppose Throgg has the rule "Copious Vomit" for a reason. Normally, he can vomit better than other trolls...but once in a while, boy-howdy.

I think the argument is sound (though it is silly that his breath weapon-vomit isn't magical due to sentence structure), and I don't think it's really that unreasonable. I'd expect to see a lot of big, cheap units pushed his way, to minimize the damages he can cause.

Eeeeeeeeeeeeew . Thanks for that, RZ!

Warpsolution- just getting the breath weapon in combat is crazy now, it not being magical isn't a big deal, and is the only way to read it if you're not applying the "instead of attacking normally" also to the second half of the paragraph. Not a bad tradeoff at all, of course...

Oh, of course, of course. It's just silly from an in-game logistics view (when I just sorta' spit up some bile, it's all sparkly, but when I really let 'er rip, it's just regular-type vomit).

He has to let the magic bile ferment in a special gizzard that grinds up fay critters to really get the magical fairy properties. When he lets loose a bunch it exceeds the capacity of that organ and just comes out all stinky and juicy.


So there is a new WoC faq?

There's a bunch of new FAQs. I don't think the WoC one had a whole lot of changes. Off the top of my head, just trolls and a bunch of questions I never really thought to ask about giants.

Ah, I'll have to check that! Just used a giant for my WoC for the first time last week

Here ya go!

WoC FAQ

Very nice Glad to see GW updating FAQs with actually good questions people seem to have. Maybe not all of them, but I haven't really been keeping track, so it seems cool to me