Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I don't want to come across as being rude but i'm looking for a very specific answer from someone who is better with logic / critical thinking than I am this morning.

I'm not looking for anything but a logic based arguement. I don't want to hear your interpretation of the rules or how you think they SHOULD play out. I don't want a RAI vs RAW discussion. I want the logical explanation of why the language used in the wording of the scroll's text and/or the wording of the spell casting text, stops one from using the scroll when denied the ability to dispel.

Consider the following situation:
If I have no dispel dice left and I'm fresh out of dispel scrolls, I cannot dispel the next spell my opponent casts. I have absolutely no option to dispel the next spell he casts. I CAN use the feedback scroll though.


Per the BRB, a spell cast with IF can't be dispelled.

Per the BRB, a feedback scroll can be read instead of attempting to dispel the spell that was cast.

I can see and understand the process that leads one to suppose that if a spell doesn't allow a dispel you don't get a chance to dispel so you can't do something in lieu of dispelling but I don't think it's correct.

There is no condition stated that one has to be ABLE to dispel in order to use the scroll. The way I read it is the BRB is simply stating that you can't first dispel the spell and then also use the scroll.

If you cannot attempt to dispel, you cannot use a scroll, feedback or not. You are only given permission to use the scroll instead of attempting - if you are prevented from attempting you are prevented from using any kind of scroll.

Where do the rules say that I can ONLY use the scroll when I'm able to dispel?

Is it logically built into the word "instead"? Where does your logic come from?

The statement "you can walk instead of running" doesn't require the ability to run in order to walk.

Instead of attempting to dispell....

If its cast with IF you get no attempt to dispel, therefor you cannot use the scroll.

Its not hard to understand.

and yes, the word instead is the key word in that sentence. The rules clearly state that if its cast with IF you go straight to spell resolution, completely skipping the dispel step.

Take the statement "You can perform action A instead of attempting action B."

How does action A become conditional to the ability to perform action B?

Because it is a permissive rule set. The only reason you have permission to attempt a dispel is because the rules say you can at a certain time. You have no permission to use a dispel scroll, except INSTEAD of attempting a dispel.

As above.

The rules tell you what you can do. You have no permission to dispel (or attempt to) if the spell is cast with IF, therefore doing somehting in place of dispelling is also disallowed.

Nosferatu's got it, there. The rules cannot cover everything you are not allowed to do; they simply tell you what is allowed. Everything else is illegal.

Alright, assuming I concede the above how does the following situation play out?

I have used all of my dispel dice and I don't have a dispel scroll. My opponent casts a spell without IF. Without dice or a scroll I can't dispel the spell, I can however use a feedback scroll.

Isn't that the same kind of situation? If not, is there something special about the If disallowing a dispel relative to my lack of dice/dispel scroll disallowing a dispel?

Correct. IF specifically skips the dispel step. Having no dice does not skip the dispel step.

Well, in this case you technically are ALLOWED to attempt a dispel. You just have no dice to make the attempt with.

So you forego your attempt at the dispel (even though your best attempt is still a failure, it is an attempt nonetheless), and use the feedback scroll.

As has been stated already it's all about the dispel step.

Let's apply some logic.

The magic phase has 5 steps.

Step 1 - Generate dice (no way to use the feedback scroll here).

Step 2 - Wizard casts spell (again no way to use the feedback scroll here).

Step 3 - Opponent may attempt to dispel (here is where a feedback scroll can be used).

Step 4 - Spell Resolution (too late to use the scroll here).

Step 5 - If wizard still has dice, can return to Step 2 and cast another spell. (again too late to use feedback scroll).

So based on the above the only time the scroll can be used is in STEP 3.

Now Page 33 of the rule book states that when a spell is cast with IRRESISTIBLE FORCE you "go straight to Step 4, Spell Resolution"

So logically if the only step that allows the scroll to be used is Step 3 and the rules say to skip Step 3 and go straight to Step 4 then the scroll can't be used against a spell cast with Irresistible Force.


It is like in Monopoly where it says you go straight to jail, do not pass Go, do not collect $200.