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Hey Dakka,

I'm just getting into WHFB with a Skaven army and I've got a question regarding banners and wound allocation. I do not have the Army book in front of me but the rules for the Shroud(?) of Dripping Death read roughly as follows:

"At the start of each and every Combat phase, each model in b2b with the BSB suffers a Strength 3 hit with no armour saves allowed."

Since this is for specific models, would that mean that I roll S3 against the individual toughness of that model then my opponent removes casualties or takes ward saves on those specific models (characters and command elements for example), or do they simply pull from the rank-and-file according to how casualties are removed in combat. I know in 40k, when you possess the ability to target a specific model everything is resolved on that model, but this isn't 40k. I am trying to determine which banner is better, this one (which causes S3 hits to models in b2b with no armor save) or the Banner of the Underempire(sp) (which causes 2d6 S2 hits with armor, distributed per Shooting rules, iirc) for 5 points less.

If the Dripping Death has the potential to remove command elements before challenges and combat resolution, then it may be worth it.

Also, do these wounds count towards combat resolution? What about the wounds from the Banner of the Underempire(sp)?

What say ye experience Fantasy generals?

It could kill the champion, but not SB/musician. If it does wounds in the combat phase, they count towards combat res.

If it says models in base contact then the models in base contact take hits. For the second question items that can kill and count for combat resolution usually say they do so, if there isn't speciffic permission the casualties don't count, do check the FAQ though the answer might be there (and unlike 40k FAQs all the answers in the WHFB ones are official rulings).

I just did a quick read of the FAQ and don't see anything. My understanding, due to the wording in the BRB and previous corrections on here, were that wounds would count UNLESS there was specific permission that they didn't.

And you can't kill SB/musician because the rules for them say someone else takes their place (unless they are last couple of models).

I'd say that the Shroud of Dripping Death would apply specifically to the models in B2B with the bearer. So you would roll against those specific profiles, and they would be allowed then to make any ward saves they might possess.

A few things to remember about this though, even though you might be in B2B with the opposing Standard Bearer (not BSB) or Musician, and they might die, a RNF model would be removed instead. This represents some poor schmuck picking up the banner or instrument after the first guy dies.

If the wounds happen at the start of combat, they should count to the resolution of that combat.

The underempire banner functions differently. Because it is shooting, it will not hit a character if there are 5 RNF (excluding the champion) models in the unit alive. You would simply follow the rules for shooting distribution. If the underempire banner hits at the same time (start of the combat phase) then I do not see why it would not apply to the combat resolution.

Yup it can kill champs&chars speciffically, the musician and banner count as RnF so they're not removed that way.
Which wording in the BRB, how bout a page?

If we go under the impression that both banners count towards combat resolution (since both are applied during the Combat phase, but wounds are distributed differently), what would be better:

1) Roughly 2-3 S3 hits with no armor save

OR

2) 2D6 S2 hits with armor save

That depends on what you are fighting. If you are fighting Chaos Warriors, the banner of the underempire wouldn't likely kill anything. If you are fighting against skaven slaves, or anything that is unarmored, it could potentially perform better.

I'd prefer the dripping death as it could pick out champions / characters if need be, and the no armour save means you are more likely to get something out of it against all units in any army, but thats just personal preference. YMMV

Very true. Everyone seems to love the Underempire to death, but the Shroud seems better to me-more all-around performance.

Or, at least. I used to. I thought there was something in the 8th edition errata that made the banner worse.

As far as I can tell I'll be fighting maybe Lizardmen, definitely High Elves and Dark Elves. I expect ASF to destroy me because only the HE player is well versed in WHFB, the rest of us are 40k veterans.

I think Dripping Death will be my banner for these 1k games but I have two more queries if Dakka has the time lol. First, what is the best banner for the BSB in bigger games? Secondly, our HE player has stated that his Swordsmen still retain ASF despite carrying Greatswords (which have ASL) even though the rules state they cancel eachother out. What is the correct ruling?

The one in the HE FAQ, which I advise you to read - your mate, in other words.

You should probably post this as a thread in Tactics.

Aye, if you want some discussion on this, post it elsewhere.

But real quick, I wouldn't give the BSB a magic standard; the real benefit is the re-roll, so try to keep him alive instead. Though I think most people would say that the Storm Banner is the best of the bigger banners.

So, is that photoshop business from a while back still happening?