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Well, since I posted my list here some time ago, I've playtested it a few times and found certain things to be less than optimal...the list goes:

EDIT: Here's two variants of the list I've made based on advice below:

HQ:

Autarch(WJG, Mandiblasters, Powersword, Fusion gun) = 125

Elites:

6 Striking Scorpions(Exarch with the Claw, Biting blade, Stalker and Shadowstrike) = 153

Troops:

10 Dire Avengers(Exarch with dual catapults and Bladestorm) = 152
+ Wave Serpent with TL Brightlance and Spirit stones = 145

10 Storm Guardians with dual flamers and a Warlock with Destructor = 127
+ Wave Serpent with Tl Brightlance and Spirit stones = 145

Fast Attack:

5 Warp Spiders(Exarch with dual deathspinners and powerblades, Withdraw) = 152

Heavy Support:

3 War walkers with 6 Scatterlasers = 180

Fire Prism with Holofields, Spirit stones = 160

Fire Prism with Holofields, Spirit stones = 160

1499 points

......and the other one:


HQ:

Farseer with RoW, RoWit, Spirit stones, Guide and Doom = 135

Elite:

5 Fire Dragons = 96
+ Wave Serpent with TL shuriken cannon, Spirit stones = 110

Troops:

10 Dire Avengers(Exarch with dual catapults and Bladestorm) = 152
+ Wave Serpent with TL Brightlance and Spirit stones = 145

10 Storm Guardians with dual flamers and a Warlock with Destructor = 127
+ Wave Serpent with Tl Brightlance and Spirit stones = 145

Fast Attack:

6 Warp Spiders(Exarch with dual deathspinners, Withdraw) = 164

Heavy Support:

3 War walkers with 6 Scatterlasers = 180

Fire Prism with Spirit stones = 125

Fire Prism with Spirit stones = 125

1498 points

Wow.. that looks pretty similar to mine. Some thoughts:

If you aren't outflanking those war walkers I'd consider getting Guide on the Farseer to augment them.

However, the fact you only have 4 tanks at 1500 is where I think you need a little backup. I'd drop the Autarch and scorpions to get another Wave Serpent. Perhaps FDs or a small DA squad with a Scatterserpent. The real reason your fire prisms probably take so much heat is that you have a large amount of points wrapped up in outflank on T1 and then another 115 points with only a fusion gun. Neither of those points are 'targets'

Another serpent may just do the trick, especially if they have dragons for that psychological effect.

That said, if it's just a question of dropping scorpions or not dropping them, I'd drop them and add holos. You may as well try not to lose your prisms on T1.

Remaining points could be spent on the farseer (guide, stones, runes) to make the war walkers a really feared target.

Araenion wrote:Farseer(RoW, Doom) =

Switch to 'guide' for the WarWalkers. They won't need Doom with STR 6 guns, but their BS3 needs help. I run this and the WWs make points back nearly every time.

Araenion wrote:6 Striking Scorpions(Exarch with the Claw, Stalker and Shadowstrike)

I like the full 10 for dumping a whole Chessex dice box on the charge, plus a Claw.

Araenion wrote: I mainly need advice regarding this, Scorps or Holofields + 90 unspent points. Thoughts?

My falcon does die a lot without HoloFs, but my full 10 Scorps often are the bread winners, along with the 'guided' WWs.

I'm not dropping the Autarch.

He's done so much for me in the last couple of games. I almost did away with my friend's LR on T3 with his fusion gun, after burning through a Vindicator in T2, it wasn't even funny. After that, my friend decided they were a primary threat and went after them with his Assault Termies. Then he managed to kill three of them before going down.

Luck was on my side, of course, but you'd be suprised just how big of a target they become after your opponent realises just how versatile they are and that they can do away with any unit on the table with relative ease.

I'd rather drop the Farseer, really. He's done much much less in recent games. Guided Avengers/Doomed squad being shot at is amazing, but not sure if it's 130 points amazing.

What do you think about dropping Scorpions and the Farseer and adding a Serpent with 5-6 Fire Dragons? I do need extra heavy AT firepower, that's the one thing I miss, I think. And yes, dropping a Farseer what am I thinking...but really, in this list, I barely cast my spells twice in the entire game. *shrug* Just doesn't seem worth it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brothererekose wrote:

Araenion wrote:Farseer(RoW, Doom) =

Switch to 'guide' for the WarWalkers. They won't need Doom with STR 6 guns, but their BS3 needs help. I run this and the WWs make points back nearly every time.

War walkers are sufficiently effective without Guide in my experience, while Dire Avengers really need Doom if they want to wipe out squads on an objective, which is often their goal in my list. I'd prefer having both, though.

I like the full 10 for dumping a whole Chessex dice box on the charge, plus a Claw. My falcon does die a lot without HoloFs, but my full 10 Scorps often are the bread winners, along with the 'guided' WWs.

How do you deal with them not getting where you want them to, then? My entire list is so mobile that their use is there, no doubt, but is it really necessary, when I have other tools at my disposal for the same task? Hmm...

Araenion wrote:

I like the full 10 for dumping a whole Chessex dice box on the charge, plus a Claw. My falcon does die a lot without HoloFs, but my full 10 Scorps often are the bread winners, along with the 'guided' WWs.

How do you deal with them not getting where you want them to, then? My entire list is so mobile that their use is there, no doubt, but is it really necessary, when I have other tools at my disposal for the same task? Hmm...

This. I have no idea why you'd shadowstrike 10 dudes, not knowing where they'd turn up. The threat they put forth in the 40k universe while outflanking is characterized by one thing. Claw Delivery System. Anything past the wounds necessary to get him into combat with a tank, backboard troops, or artillery are all you want. Anything else is taking points away from what you put on the table on T1.

As for dropping the Farseer, if you aren't really relying on guide or doom, then yea, take a 3rd serpent. Consider also that it leaves you with no psyker, and I find in competitive lists you'll see librarians everywhere. I think Runes of Warding is worth taking the Farseer on its own. Also, if you do add a serpent of dragons... why would you need a fusion gun with BS6 for 150% the cost of the squad of dragons to do the same job?

You know, that's a very good point...besides the +1 to reserve rolls, there is no need.

One use for Scorpions in tandem with War walkers is deploying Walkers on one side of the battlefield, outflanking the Scorpions on the other. It works like a charm, because it's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation for my opponents. However, you still rely on luck to get them where you want them...when it works, it can turn games around and when it doesn't, I have a squad of 150 points wasting away on one side of the board with no way to catch their prey.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've two versions of the list in my head now. One with Farseer and Fire Dragons, but without Holofields, the other with the Autarch, Scorpions and Holofields.

They both likely work pretty well, all that remains is to see just how much I am going to miss the Farseer(haven't played a game without him since I got into 40k) in the latter list.

Araenion wrote:

Brothererekose wrote:

Araenion wrote:Farseer(RoW, Doom) =

Switch to 'guide' for the WarWalkers. They won't need Doom with STR 6 guns, but their BS3 needs help. I run this and the WWs make points back nearly every time.

War walkers are sufficiently effective without Guide in my experience, while Dire Avengers really need Doom if they want to wipe out squads on an objective, which is often their goal in my list. I'd prefer having both, though.

Having both might not be possible without 2 farseers.

Anyhow, the WWs will hit with 50% of dice, that is, 12 hits at BS3. Then another 10 will wound at STR6. Nice.

With Guide, 18 will hit and 15 will wound. Quite a bit a bigger bite, eh?

DAs with Doomed targets yield ~14 hits (outta 22, right?) and then 7 wounds at MEq Toughness. Re-roll for Doom and that's ~9.5 wounds. Roughly.

10 wounds with the DAs.
15 wounds with WWs.

Oh, wait, let's Assault with those DireAs. 21 attacks (dual-cat Exarch). ~11 hits, yielding 4 pre-Doom wounds. Maybe 8 total.

So, 18 wounds. That is more than the WWs. But those last few wounds involve getting hit back in h2h and far more dangerous.

Given which unit, WWs or DAs are going to have the biggest impact, wouldn't it be nice for the WWs to shoot up the enemy squad on the objective? Then the DAs can easily mop up what's left. In concert, the WWs and DAs work great, but with WWs Guided.

I like the full 10 for dumping a whole Chessex dice box on the charge, plus a Claw. My falcon does die a lot without HoloFs, but my full 10 Scorps often are the bread winners, along with the 'guided' WWs.

Araenion wrote:How do you deal with them not getting where you want them to, then? My entire list is so mobile that their use is there, no doubt, but is it really necessary, when I have other tools at my disposal for the same task? Hmm...

No Infiltrate. I give my scorpions a WaveSerpent.

Brothererekose wrote:

DAs with Doomed targets yield ~14 hits (outta 22, right?) and then 7 wounds at MEq Toughness. Re-roll for Doom and that's ~9.5 wounds. Roughly.

Don't forget bladestorm.... That's 10 more shots... And CC with dire avengers is not bad, since they have init 5... It allows to get few punches into already wounded unit from firing... DA are great, and so are warwalkers... There is only one thing problem with walkers, and that is mobility... DA in ws can get anywhere fast, while ww are stuck in position...

I'd play personally with 2 farseers and no autarch... Autarch is nice and all, yes big threat... He did have his melta attack on my land raider (even if he just shaken me ) and vindicator, but don't forget that land raider was my poor misjudgment (totally forgot about fusion gun, what can I say ), and vindicator was lucky deep strike within 6'' (exactly if I may add )... Problem with spiders is that you have to get close to use fusion gun, and even with your 2d6 move in assault you will be quite close... They have proven to be great, but imo that is a lot of pts for 1 melta attack... Ofc, they are primary meant for something else, but they will be as good in range combat with autarch as without... And there would be no need to get them that close...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brothererekose wrote:
Anyhow, the WWs will hit with 50% of dice, that is, 12 hits at BS3. Then another 10 will wound at STR6. Nice.

With Guide, 18 will hit and 15 will wound. Quite a bit a bigger bite, eh?

15 wounds on meq is average 5 dead... Quite nice...

As Chinchilla says, the problem with War walkers is that they have to stay put. That means my Serpent with the Farseer has to stay put. That means one quarter of my army is not out there pulling move shenanigans on my opponent.

I don't want to base my tactic on deploying two units close together, especially when one's static and the other very fast.

As for the Autarch, you saw what reserves did to Wagon rush list, if I didn't have the Autarch, that tactic would've been half as effective. I've built a list that can make a very successful strike from reserve, if I choose to do so and for that, the Autarch is more important than the Farseer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edited the original post with two list variants. At 1750, the dillema is gone and the two lists mesh together.

I agree for reserves... It proved to be deadly against wagons (yet I can't wait for our ork buddy to try different tactics in first two rounds to see if it will make the game interesting).... If you start all in reserves you must have autarch (well, actually, you did fail with him his reserves roll, right? There were only 3 of 6 units comming from reserves, which is average with 4+ reserves, and it turned to be even better against battlewagon list)...

As for army list , if I managed to see properly, the dillema is which of the following to take with last pts:
1. Autarch, scorpions and holofield

or

2. Farseer and fire dragons in wave serpent

Here are my thoughts:
1. Holofield vs dragons
I personally think that prism (especially since more fragile then falcon) should have holo-fields... If you don't have holo-fields, they will die quickly. But you have nice addon in second list that will allow your prism to avoid fire for a turn (or 2 with my luck), and that is super-tank hunting unit of fire dragons... imo, they are most efficient tank killer unit, and when they get close to tank, they pop it no matter what (unless it is monolith )... Since you play only one squad of fire dragons, they will be (or at least that's how I'd play it) first thing to shoot down... But after that threat is gone, prisms will be easy to take down (AV 12 vehicle, even if in cover will be shoot down quite fast)...

Ofc, this way, you can be sure that opponent will target first dragons, then prisms and after that your serpents, which means that scoring units have high chance of surviving till end-game... But if you take holofields, opponent will be probably splitting fire between serpents and prisms, and since they are all tough, your own firepower will last longer... And not to mention if you manage to use that one squad of dragons, they're tosted next turn... So with all that, that's holofield list 1 and dragons 0 imo...

2. Autarch vs Farseer
Well, here is my biggest dilemma... How good is autarch? And how usefull is farseer in your list? Imo, you haven't been using farseer to his full potential... Yes, you guided your DAs, but that's all you have done, since my army who you tested against is mech heavy... But I feel that farseer has lot more to offer to you than you have been able to use... But then again, lets look at the list... So, you have 2 twin linked bright lances (no need for guide) and prisms that give you twin-link special rule (again no need for farseer)... And finally, only unit in the field that requires guide are war walker who will make your wave serpent bound to one place if you use farseer properly... So you're paying 135pts for psyker harassment and dire avenger to hit reroll... Is it worth it? I don't think so...
On the other hand, you have autarch... Reserves roll do nicely with noumber of units, you increase survivability in melee with warp spyders and you have little anti-tank threat in 12'' moving unit... Not bad... But then again, I see biggest weakness in dealing with vehicles without fire dragons (let me remind you that you did have problem with land raider penetration, ofc not in last game sincu you managed to penetrate with 8 out of 12 shots where 4' was needed... For those who read this other than op, bear in mind that from 4 shots that did not penetrate, there were 2 glancings )... But then again, with lowered survivability of prisms and without autarch, you are mostly relying on fire dragons to do the job and that is imo too dangerous... So another point to first list

3. Striking scorpions
Now scorpions have not proven to do much in most of our games... Since you just got them and we didn't play significant amount of games to test them properly, I can only give my subjective opinion... And that is that without proper means to get to objective, they are 153pts of gamble... And I don't mean only that they have to come to the right side when outflanking, but also there has to be target they can engage on the edge of the table in the first place... Sure, they can wipe out damn campers like lootas and gretchins, or long fangs and devestators, but imo 153 pts for such a gamble is too much... And they are, with your war walkers, only slow thing on the table...

All in all, I'd go with first list...If I had to choose between them...


Now, a little observation... More tweeking you make, the less hybrid your army becomes and more mech... And I think that is good thing... Imo, you should play the first list, or something in between with second... But you should slowly advance towards full mech list...

Thanks for that...was a very useful read.

Now my own observations on few of your points:

I've done some tweaking and there's simply no way to add Holofields on Prisms and Dragons together, without making severe changes to the list. With that said, the point indeed does go toward the first list.

And second, there's not a lot of stuff I could add instead of Scorpions. Either a Farseer or Pathfinders. A second expensive-ish HQ instead of a squad of Scorps seems dubious, and Pathfinders, apart from the fact I don't own the models yet, are a target of a different sort, a static troop choice with no melee protection.

So while Scorpions indeed don't do a whole lot, I have problems finding a replacement for them that would. And out of all those options, they look the best, so point goes to them.

I don't think you need holos with another prism. He's wrong when he says they're your only AT. You have two TL bright lances, on top of prisms (remember I play a list very similar to yours with DAs, SGs, and a FD squad in 3 serpents) so I believe I can prove what I'm saying in the games I've played. Albeit I have a Falcon as well instead of walkers.

Your target priority will be easier, your opponent's harder. At 1500 I don't think you want 2 HQ's to be honest in a mech list. Pick one. I really think a simple doom or guideseer is your best option. Many will say doom because of DAs, but in reality, I find guide more useful when you pack so many bright lances and prisms ... not to mention the War Walkers. You can think ahead, move his prism where it needs to go to be in range of what you want to guide the next turn.

Chin made a false statement. If you add holofields on the prisms and don't the dragons, you still only have 4 tanks and the prisms are still the most threat to most lists. They'll still get targeted first.. Speaking from experience, and from a player perspective. D'Ork played a Scorpion, War Walker mech list against me with 4 tanks like you are playing. I had a very easy time prioritizing targets and was able to permastun/shake his prisms until my warp spiders got near them to wreck them. The only difference with holos is they'll be shaken longer and live longer. You are going the wrong way to do mech. You want more targets, more threat, so that if they shoot one thing or two things, you still have many more. Not buffing what you have to oblivion or taking super units.

Are 5 vs 4 tanks really that much of a difference at 1500 points? Especially since the 5th tank, apart from having one dangerous but frail squad in them is pretty useless with just 3 S6 AP5 shots on it. My Prisms will no doubt perform longer with the Dragon Serpent added in, but the tradeoff is that they'll die soon after the Dragons do their job and I traded the ability to give +1 to reserve rolls and a BS 6 melta for that.

It is no doubt a good list, but at 1500, I think it's relying overly on that Dragon squad to do its work. If it happens to get destroyed T1, it's a lot of points gone down the drain.

Remember I'm not entirely mech, I can last all through 7 turns of the game with how durable my tanks are and Autarch is at least one AT gun that can't be silenced short of killing off the entire squad in shooting or killing them in the first round of combat in an assault(Hit and Run).

I see what you're saying, I'm not arguing that the list you're suggesting is good. I guess I just have my own preference that might as well be completely wrong. I can't wait to try the other list, see how Fire Dragons work a few times. Maybe I'll love them?

for 1500 points, I think you are a bit light on troops. I know that Eldar can get by with fewer than 3 per 500 because of the durability of transports... but its just that, "get by" A squad of tri flamer storm guardians, or a jet bike squad with a warlock could go a long ways toward helping out you with objective games.

I like running both an Autarch and a Farseer whenever I have the points to spare. An Autarch gives you +1 to reserve rolls, and with warp spiders can really harass the enemy anywhere on the map, while a farseer enhances your armies fire power. Both are good.

Were I you, I would drop all the spirit stones from your tanks, then downgrade your war walkers to shuri cannons and outflank em, and possibly drop a power on your farseer to add the Autarch back in. Outflanking War Walkers are even more awesome with bolstered reserve rolls.

In response to 4 vs 5 tanks, yes. I do think it matters. Don't think of it as 4 vs 5, think of it as 2 vs 3. Dragons and prisms essentially fit the same role. People may disregard a serpent as a transport (to their error) until a TL bright lance pops them. However, it's genetic knowledge now that all gamers know a prism and dragon squad for what they are and will target them first. Holofields are sweet and will keep them alive, but I don't think you are getting one thing. It's not that your prisms will die 'anyway' after the dragons do their job. It's that the prisms will have precious time to remove the only threats that can touch them during that 1-2 turn time. If they can't, then sure, you have a problem.

However, the list you have can work. Like I said, if you just want to get some points and figure out what to do with them without adding new units, the holo-fields are good.

The point you make about the meltagun inside the spiders is decent that they have to kill all the spiders to get rid of the gun. I'd definitely give your spiders Withdraw. We don't always roll what we want with the assault move, might help in those circumstances. Or to assault piddly units then hit and run away.

To Akaen...I've tried running Walkers like that. And, honestly? It was extremely uneffective. No doubt you can pull it off, but I can't, obviously, since 24" Walkers are more frustration to me as a player than my opponent. I'll mess around with the upgrades, see what I can do, but I generally don't consider stones to be at all optional on my tanks. They -need- to move, even if just to get a cover save.

As for troops, there's no room for another Serpent squad and I don't own any Jetbikes at all. But that's really my only excuse for not using the bikes, even though I'd like to. I'm still very much building up my forces.

As for Zain, I just checked and I did add Withdraw both to my list and into their point cost.

As for your other points - it's a no brainer that at 1750 Fire Dragons would be in. I've considered adding another Storm Guardian Serpent, or Pathfinders and a Farseer(or an Autarch), but Dragons seem like the most solid choice by far. But at 1500, I really like the diversity that I have now. Everything in pairs, durable and quick.

Deploy Walkers on one side of the board, outflank Scorpions on the other, either your opponent loses a squad on the side or they deploy in the middle, where my Prisms can do maximized damage. As I said, I'll try it with Dragons, we'll see how it goes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've found a new list, which includes both Farseer and Autarch...goes as this:

HQ:

Autarch(WJG, Mandiblasters, Powersword, Fusion gun) = 125

Farseer(RoW, Guide) = 90

Troops:

10 Dire Avengers(Exarch with dual catapults and Bladestorm) = 152
+ Wave Serpent with TL Brightlance and Spirit stones = 145

10 Storm Guardians with dual flamers and a Warlock with Destructor = 127
+ Wave Serpent with Tl Brightlance and Spirit stones = 145

5 Dire Avengers = 60

Fast Attack:

5 Warp Spiders(Exarch with dual deathspinners and powerblades, Withdraw) = 152

Heavy Support:

Falcon with EML, Holofields and Spirit stones = 180

Fire Prism with Holofields, Spirit stones = 160

Fire Prism with Holofields, Spirit stones = 160

Total: 1496

I'm a little sad to lose both Scorpions and War Walkers, but I get another scoring unit and another tank instead.

And a good one at that. Nice trade.

This list looks very familiar ...

Yea, almost identical to my list at 1500. I think it'll do you well. Very effective. Except I have another FD serpent added instead of the Autarch.

Either way I think you will be successful if played right.

Haha, well, I mostly followed yours and Akaen's(and of course, my friends') advice when I was building up my original list, so it stands to reason it's quite similar. But to tell the truth, I haven't consciously copied you, just came to it by thinking and tweaking, suppose you did the same with yours.

That looks like a solid list. I'd like to see that Farseer with Stones and Doom, but you may be able to get by without them. Alternatively, you could switch Guide to Doom. It would then be effective to support the flamer squad.

Grrr...first I had Doom and people said I should switch to Guide, now I have Guide and I'm told to switch to Doom...there's no satisfying you people, even though I'm not really trying...

Guide is there to TL my Falcon shots. Otherwise Doom would be with Avengers.

Araenion wrote:Grrr...first I had Doom and people said I should switch to Guide, now I have Guide and I'm told to switch to Doom...there's no satisfying you people, even though I'm not really trying...

Guide is there to TL my Falcon shots. Otherwise Doom would be with Avengers.

Ah, gotcha. I was thinking the Farseer would ride with one of the advance DA squads, not with the minimal DA in the Falcon.

He's using it like I do mine - the guideseer is just there to make his Falcon twin-linked. Doomseer would indeed be better if he was running it with the DAs.