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This is my attempt at a somewhat fluffy Saim-Hann list. The focus is more towards fluff and how fun it will be to play but there are quite a few people in my area that try and be really competitve, so it needs to be able to perform as well. Here's the list:

Eldrad stand in (haven't picked a name yet)- 210
Dire Avengers x6 with exarch, twin cats, bladestorm- 92
Falcon with holo-fields, spirit stones, missle launcher- 180

Farseer with spirit stones, doom, guide, fortune- 140
Dire Avengers x6 with exarch, twin cats, bladestorm- 92
Falcon with holo-fields, spirit stones, missle launcher- 180

Guardian Jetbikes x3 with shuriken cannon- 76

Guardian Jetbikes x3 with shuriken cannon- 76

Guardian Jetbikes x3 with shuriken cannon- 76

Storm Guardians x10 plus Warlock, enhance, 2 flamers- 132
Wave Serpent with twin-linked spirit stones, scatter laser, shuriken cannon- 135

Fire Dragons x5 with exarch, firepike, tankhunters, crack shot- 120
Falcon with holo-fields, spirit stones, starcannon- 185

Vypers x2 with 2 scatter lasers, 2 shuriken cannons- 140

Vypers x2 with 2 scatter lasers, 2 shuriken cannons- 140
TOTAL: 1974

So how can I make this maybe a little more competitve, but still be fluffy and fun to play? (I am not looking for a copypaste/spammy sort of list)

Eldrad: A solid choice at 2000pts!

Farseer: Drop one of his powers to save points. Possibly even drop the Stones and 2 of his powers. You already have Eldrad, so your powers should be pretty well covered. I don't know if you need even more points in HQ.

DA squads: Upgrading to the Exarch and Bladestorm is too expensive for a 6 man squad. Either downgrade to be 5 for a minimum cost scoring unit, or upgrade to a squad of 10 and switch those Falcons to WSs.

Falcon: I like them, but if you do switch to WS for your DA squads, switch them to Fire Prisms. I prefer Brightlance to EML, but either one can work well.

Jetbikes: A fluffy unit, not super effective, but can be good. Try filling them out a bit and give them a warlock on jetbike.

Storm Guardians: Solid choice. They definitely give DA a run for their money. I assume you're running 10 of them, not 2, right? Switch the Warlock to Destructor. Storm Guardians strength is NOT in CC, but in their flame templates.

Fire Dragons: Solid choice. I'd drop the Exarch and his upgrades. Taking 5 (or 6) Dragons is all you need to reliably take out tanks. The firepike and tankhunters is overkill and you can use the points elsewhere. Also, put them in a WS, not a Falcon. They need to be charging towards your enemy's tanks first turn, which is exactly where a Falcon wants NOT to be. The WS also has increased survivability, so they have a better chance of surviving to their target.

Vypers: Like the Jetbikes, they aren't ideal, but they are fluffy. Not much else I can tell you to do with them, but split them up into 3 squads. More squads means more split fire and they're harder to kill.

Overall: You can drop a troop choice or two. Having 6 is way more than you need. Also, think about taking a Farseer on a Jetbike with a huge retinue of Warlocks on Jetbikes. It's a very competitive unit (just keep Fortune on them) and will fit into your fluffyness.

Good to see Vypers in your list - I use them regularly in the same configuration, and people moan about how horrible they are... and then make the mistake of ignoring them.

If you can scratch up points for a 'Lock on a bike, they're nasty for throwing at vehicles. Leave him with the Witchblade for 3 S9 attacks on the charge, and that should do the trick most of the time.

As Grakmar said, take Destructor on that Storm Guardian Warlock. They're kind of a one-hit wonder, and they only do it with templates.

What makes wave serpents more survivable than falcons? I feel like holo-fields are better than the energy field.. and falcons have more guns, too. And best of all I think falcons look really cool. Wave serpents lack the little extra bit of character that the falcon turret has. Plus I'm going to but the cloudstrike squadron because it is so convenient.

The Exarchs are there mainly for character. Aspect squads seem much cooler with an Exarch leading the squad. When a vehicle turbo boosts the fire dragon exarch with crack shot will ignore its cover save. The dire avengers need as many shots as possible in my opinion and an exarch helps with that.

I definitely agree with the destructor on the storm guardians and yeah I meant 10 lol.

If I get rid of fortune from the farseer, change the warlock to destructor and drop tank hunters from the fire dragons, I would be 76 points short. I'm thinking about getting another squad of jetbikes and running two squads of six jetbikes. How does that sound?

ghastli wrote:What makes wave serpents more survivable than falcons? I feel like holo-fields are better than the energy field.. and falcons have more guns, too. And best of all I think falcons look really cool. Wave serpents lack the little extra bit of character that the falcon turret has. Plus I'm going to but the cloudstrike squadron because it is so convenient.

The Exarchs are there mainly for character. Aspect squads seem much cooler with an Exarch leading the squad. When a vehicle turbo boosts the fire dragon exarch with crack shot will ignore its cover save. The dire avengers need as many shots as possible in my opinion and an exarch helps with that.

I definitely agree with the destructor on the storm guardians and yeah I meant 10 lol.

If I get rid of fortune from the farseer, change the warlock to destructor and drop tank hunters from the fire dragons, I would be 76 points short. I'm thinking about getting another squad of jetbikes and running two squads of six jetbikes. How does that sound?

The Wave Serpent is more survivable than the Falcon simply because of the Energy Field. With the abundance of Melta currently being played, that is a HUGE benifit to WS, especially when you're close to an enemy, as the Fire Dragons need to be.

At distance, there's not a huge difference between the two, but up close with the Dragons, the WS is at a major advantage.

I'm just thinking of rifleman dreds or lootas who don't even need S8 to swat you out of the air. The melta thing is a good point, but I was imagining sitting back and shooting a bit with all those guns on the falcons, vypers, jetbikes, etc. and then going towards the enemy when I can definitely take them. Maybe fire dragons dont exactly fit with that strategy... Any suggestions on a replacement or should I change my tactics?

I'd say your tactics are totally sound. Falcons and Vypers want to be at max range, unloading their weapons in a minimum of danger.

But, Fire Dragons can't be sitting in back. They need to take out your enemy's big gun as quickly as they can, before it can take out your tanks.

So, first turn, Falcon, Vypers, any other long range attack should all hang back and unload on their enemies. Fire Dragons (in a WS) charge at the enemy tank, ready to pop out of their transport turn 2 and destroy whatever you need to destroy with nearly 100% reliability.

Quick Pointers:
- Falcon loadout is an illegal config. Those DA squads need to be a 5 man or there is no room for the farseers in there since it's a 6 max capacity.
- Farseer, pick 2 powers. Yes three gives you versatility, but honestly it's a waste of vital points 90% of the match.
- Guardian Jetbikes, take a warlock with embolden in those units. one missile launcher will have that leadership 8 running off the board.
- Enhance on Storm Guardians just makes a crappy cc unit less crappy. Take Destructor and hope your 3 flamers causes enough wounds.
- Fire Dragons and long range gunboats don't mix, drop the exarch.
- Starcannons are horrible.
- Split one of the Vypers off into a 3rd unit. No sense it hampering yourself with an additional squadron when you can have them solo.


On the debate of Serpents vs Falcons, they have their separate goals.
- Falcons = Long range gunboat and when guided they are rather decent though not very point effective. They are harder to destroy (statisically), but easier to pen meaning if they are in enemy range consider them perma-shaken thus negating their value.
- Wave Serpents = Harder to get damage off on, meaning there is less risk of destruction. You can rely on the turret to continue firing if you are keeping it at range.

BlueDagger wrote:
- Starcannons are horrible.

I'd agree with this, but it needs to be qualified.

There was a HUGE amount of backlash by the Eldar players when Starcannons got downgraded from 3 shots to 2. In old rules, at 3 shots, Starcannons were awesome and you saw them everywhere. Now, at 2 shots, they're more in line with the rest of the weaponry. Most Eldar players will agree with BlueDagger and dismiss the Starcannon entirely, but I think it can still have it uses.

Specifically, it is still the best gun at taking out MeQ who aren't in cover, or Terminators either in cover or not. In current competitive play, these situations don't come up very often. Everything is in a transport, so you need guns to take out light armor as well as troops. Every other Eldar heavy weapon is better at taking out armor than the Starcannon, and most of them can also take out troops better than or equivalent to the Starcannon.

So, if your FLGS isn't fully mech, and you do see lots of Termies, consider the Starcannon. If not, go with an EML, Brightlance, or Scatter Laser

Yea that star cannon isn't going to be doing anything for you in this list. Unless you were fighting an army where everything had FNP then you would want to roll star cannons on anythin you could but currently you have 4 vehicles that could use star cannons. They aren't worth it unless you are in that certain situation. Goscatter lasters or EML's best bets.

Wow. I have made quite a few dumb mistakes in my list. I think next time I'll check it more thoroughly. A few quick questions before I update the list:

1) How could I put the Fire Dragons in a WS and still have three Falcons? (I really like the models and really would like to run three of them)
2) What do I put on the Fire Dragons' WS?
3) What else could I put in the third Falcon?

ghastli wrote:Wow. I have made quite a few dumb mistakes in my list. I think next time I'll check it more thoroughly. A few quick questions before I update the list:

1) How could I put the Fire Dragons in a WS and still have three Falcons? (I really like the models and really would like to run three of them)
2) What do I put on the Fire Dragons' WS?
3) What else could I put in the third Falcon?

1) Drop points whereever you can. Drop your DA squads to 5 each (6 with exarch isn't really worth it, as you don't get enough shots when they get out for them to do much, plus that way there's room for your Farseer/Eldrad). Drop the FD exarch entirely. If you need to, cut back on Spirit Stones, or cut back on the 2nd Farseer's upgrades.

2) Ideally: Scatter Lasers, but whatever you can afford.

3) Run it without anyone inside. You've currently got a scoring WS, 2 scoring Falcons, and 3 scoring jetbike units. That's plenty

At this point, you should carefully go through our comments and see what you like/what you don't. Then, take your list, add what you need, subtract what you don't, and give us an updated list.

Well the input so far has been great. I have gotten a better understanding of how I'm going to run this list. Here is the updated list:

Eldrad stand-in, 210
Dire Avengers x5, exarch, twin cats- 77
Falcon, EML, holo-fields, spirit stones- 180

Farseer, spirit stones, Doom, Guide- 110
Dire Avengers x5, exarch, twin cats- 77
Falcon, EML, holo-fields, spirit stones- 180

Fire Dragons x5, exarch- 92
Wave Serpent, twin-linked scatter laser, vectored engines- 135

Guardian Jetbikes x9, 3 shuriken cannons, warlock, embolden- 278

Storm Guardians x10, 2 flamers, warlock, destructor- 127
Wave Serpent, twin-linked scatter laser, shuriken cannon, spirit stones- 135

Vyper, scatter laser, shuriken cannon- 70

Vyper, scatter laser, shuriken cannon- 70

Vyper, scatter laser, shuriken cannon- 70

Falcon, holo-fields, starcannon, spirit stones- 185
TOTAL: 1996

A few things need explanations. The exarchs are there because I had points to spare, I like the models and the character that they add. The starcannon is not ideal but I feel that the falcon equipped with it can be a kind of finishing touch to an enemy squad whittled down by the rest of my army. Also, the AP2 is nice against termies, MEQs, MCs, etc. Thanks for the input so far everyone, I look forward to what you have to say about this version.

Looking good! I'd suggest switching the Storm Guardians's WS from a Scatter Laser to a Brightlance. The passengers are already ideal for taking out hordes, so their transport can be free to worry about vehicles.

Plus, your list is going to be a little lacking against AV14. The Fire Dragons should easily handle a single Land Raider, but in case there's multiple, you'll want a Brightlance somewhere.

Transports and Light Armor should fall apart before the number of S6 and S8 shots you'll be putting out, so no need to consider an EML for it.

I like it, may look at a few lil tweaks.

- Vectored engines aren't worth their points, you'll really only full out 1 maybe 2 times as you wanna keep that scatter laser firing
- looks like you really wanna keep that fire dragon exarch in there, if that is the case may I suggest Dragon's Breath flamer and Crack shot. for 5 points more at that point you would be getting a TL Heavy Flamer which would mean the dragons aren't useless vs a pure horde army.
- Storm Guardian underslug cannon, you'll have to be moving at 6" to use that puppy and at a 24" range that is getting a lil dangerous for 3 BS shots.
- In place of the star cannon might I suggest Bright lance? One less shot and +15pts, but you have the AP2 combo you are looking for and when firing your pulse at a tank the 2nd weapon becomes less useless.

Overall much more of a thumbs up. I've run the 10 man bike pack like that several times and it is truly deadly., Try to keep in range of eldrad's ride with one model to keep fortune on them and avoid CC at all costs.

BlueDagger wrote:Try to keep in range of eldrad's ride with one model to keep fortune on them and avoid CC at all costs.

This, just... this.

No one quite expects how survivable a squad of GJB is with Fortune up. Your opponent will be forced to use overwhelming firepower to try and kill them (which is a waste of their firepower and to your advantage), or to basically ignore them and let you move around the battlefield with impunity.

I'm taking most of these things into consideration. I need some anti-LR help so I'm probably going to include a bright lance on a wave serpent and the empty falcon. I overlooked the 24" range on the shuriken cannons, the underslung cannon is probably getting removed. Vectored engines... *sigh* what was I thinking? Thanks again for the positive input guys.

Quick question: Are starcannons really that bad? I like the two extra AP2 shots on the falcon, bringing its total of wounding on 2s (against MEQs and termies), AP2 shots to four. That seems pretty good in my book.

ghastli wrote:I'm taking most of these things into consideration. I need some anti-LR help so I'm probably going to include a bright lance on a wave serpent and the empty falcon. I overlooked the 24" range on the shuriken cannons, the underslung cannon is probably getting removed. Vectored engines... *sigh* what was I thinking? Thanks again for the positive input guys.

Quick question: Are starcannons really that bad? I like the two extra AP2 shots on the falcon, bringing its total of wounding on 2s (against MEQs and termies), AP2 shots to four. That seems pretty good in my book.

Yeah sadly they are, since the major issue with them is cover. In 5th addition cover saves are given out like candy and a smart opponent will use that to their benefit. You won't see a good player just hoofing it out in the open, which is where a star cannon would shine. Instead a player will make sure they are in area cover or have the tip of their right toe behind something so that when you fire that pricey S6 AP2 you turn their save from a 3+ to a 4+ (or termies 2+ to a 3++ since most will put the wounds on a storm shield)... hardly worth it's points. Instead you can take BL and if some is out in the open you only have one less shot, but it gives you the versatility now to use all three shot vs a vehicle or a MC which is what you'll find your falcon firing against the majority of the time.

Most people just take and EML and call it a day with Falcons since, for their point cost, they are safer just gun boating it against vehicles at their max 48" range.

Starcannons can really be awesome if you're playing an opponent who is using FnP spam. If you find yourself constantly playing against these armies, consider the Starcannon. But, in most situations, a Scatter Laser, Brightlance, or EML is a better choice.

Grakmar wrote:Starcannons can really be awesome if you're playing an opponent who is using FnP spam. If you find yourself constantly playing against these armies, consider the Starcannon. But, in most situations, a Scatter Laser, Brightlance, or EML is a better choice.

This is one of the main reasons many people use Fire Prisms over Falcons.

A) They can use their S9 AP2 blast for hard targets or S5 AP4 for Horde.
B) With two you have A x2 or the option of TL S10 AP1 for "OMG that must die now" or TL S6 AP3 for SM unit killing.
C) With three you have A x3, 1 of the A and 1 of B, or TL S7 AP2 for whole Termie squad killing

Now that being said Falcons are still viable and when you put a 5 man DA and Guideseer inside them they certainly get more viable. It just all depends on how you have the rest of your list filled out.

it would be nice if you could find the points to fit another 5 man Avenger squad into that third falcon, just keep em all scoring. Vectored Engines are a waste of points, dropping these will put you pretty close to affording that last Avenger Squad.

It would also be worth it to try to fit a singing spear onto your guardian jetbike warlock, just for the s9 against tanks.

Personally I would bunch up your vypers into one squad. That way you give up 2 less kill points, and can make more effective use out of guide. Also consider the EML with an underslung cannon, that way you can move 12 inches and still fire the missile as an s4 ap4 blast, and the shuri cannon, as opposed to needing to move 6 to shoot both guns.

Blue dagger is mostly right about Fire Prisms except for C. generally 3 s9 ap2 shots > one super s7 ap2 large blast for killing terminators. Prisms are amazing though, if you haven't already made your purchases you should be buying prism boxes (because they come with all the parts to make BOTH a falcon AND a prism) hooray for magnets )

Since you are only running 1 Dragon Squad, it also might be worth it to try to find the 40 points to upgrade both of your Wave Serpents to Bright Lances. You'll want more of an answer to AV14 than a single dragon squad.

I'd probably drop 3 GJBs to help pay for some of these upgrades. A squad of 7 is still pretty solid.

akaean wrote:iBlue dagger is mostly right about Fire Prisms except for C. generally 3 s9 ap2 shots > one super s7 ap2 large blast for killing terminators. Prisms are amazing though, if you haven't already made your purchases you should be buying prism boxes (because they come with all the parts to make BOTH a falcon AND a prism) hooray for magnets )

Have to do the old box set for this, new one is nightspinner/prism.

I didn't realize the new fire prism kit didn't have falcon bits =(. I haven't bought any prisms since my 2 old ones, so I guess I just didn't realize they changed it. heh

Yeah I was looking at the sprues for the falcon and I've decided that the bright lance+pulsar looks cooler than the starcannon. Convenient, eh?

Also, I'm thinking about dropping some jetbikes, putting bright lances on the wave serpents and filling the third falcon with dire avengers because I need the anti AV14 and I don't want to buy more jetbikes than I have to.

I like the way the vypers are equipped and I'm probably not going to bunch them up. Yeah it is fewer kill points but they actually become easier to kill (AV10, open-topped, in a squadron). Also, they are more likely to be ignored because 2/3 games are objectives. We actually play more than that in my gaming community because so many of us are bored with kill points.

Remember for Jetbikes, ebay is your friend.

Also, you'll be able to pick up some Falcons on Ebay cheap unless your going to magnetize them for a Falcon/Prism swap in which case you can find the old prism boxes cheaper then usual on ebay.

I'm going to buy the box set that comes with three falcons so I can sprue paint them (red of course) but I will look at ebay for jetbikes, thanks for the tip.