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Ok, ok crucify me if you must! however i'm in work at the moment at discussing 40k with a work mate, army lists and the such.
Its probably a yes no answer and if so then we can just lock this thread right after the answer!
We were just debating, because neither of us can remember exactly how we play it.
Ill give an example.
10 Space Marines stand and fire at an dedicated Ork trukk transport full of 12 Slugga Boys.
9 of the Marines have Bolters and 1 has a Meltagun. Lets say its 8'' away so they get their 2 shots each. So thats 18 shots, and the melta-gun.
Now, the dice rolling yeah!
In my theory you roll 18 white dice and 1 coloured dice, all at the same time, to hit the trukk, and resolve the results from there.
The other theory is the more realistic one, that you roll one dice for the special weapon, resolve that, then if it blows up the trukk, you then roll the 18 dice to hit the troops that fall out of the trukk. The reasoning behind this is that the Trukk is a dedicated transport and is part of the squad?
I might be TOTALLY wrong and i think i am, so in reality i have no idea why i am asking but hey!
1) The Trukk is not part of the unit. Never has been, never will be. Dedicated transports take up no Force Organization slots, but are separate units in all respects, with the exception of the special case of who starts embarked in them (which can only be the unit for which they were purchased).
2) The rules for shooting at Transport Vehicles specifically forbid you from shooting a transport with one weapon, then the embarked unit with another. The rules for Shooting forbid it again when they say you cannot split your fire between two targets. Even units that can target different units with multiple weapons (such as Daemons with We Are Legion, or a Land Raider with Power of the Machine Spirit) must declare all of their shots before they begin rolling - since the unit embarked in the transport cannot be targeted, they cannot declare that unit as one of their targets.
FilbertoFrog wrote:The other theory is the more realistic one, that you roll one dice for the special weapon, resolve that, then if it blows up the trukk, you then roll the 18 dice to hit the troops that fall out of the trukk. The reasoning behind this is that the Trukk is a dedicated transport and is part of the squad?
This is not more realistic - everyone is supposed to be shooting at once. If you want to fire just the melta while everyone else waits to see what happens, that's fine but they get to fire next turn.
The rules covering this are very clear and what you have suggested is explicitly forbidden. See the note under Effects of Damage Results on Passengers P67.
Also on the more realistic note, i mean as in real life
Squad of say 15 soliders one with missile launcher; Squad leader shouts hold fire, everyone holds, missile launcher destroys armored car and everyone else opens fire as the dazed and confused troops pile out of it.
However, i cant really ask for realism when theres 8foot green skins walking around
Either way I assumed this was the ruling but obv being sat at work in a canteen means being sure is hard
Cheers!!
EDIT:
Just to add something with declaring shooting, I seem to remember years ago in Fantasy Battle you had to declare EVERYTHING first then resolve?
Meaning in 40k would you declare what everything is shooting at at the start of the shooting phase then resolve? or can you declare 1 unit then resolve that, then move onto the next unit? In effect you could alter your shooting tactics dependant on what happens with other units shooting results?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/10/13 14:38:14
The reason it's not realistic is because it's an abstraction, not a simulation. Consider that everything that happens in three hours in a single game is probably happening in about five minutes on a real battlefield. Think of it that way and an entire squad firing at once doesn't seem so strange.
If you want to worry about realism, worry about why your bolter marines can't shoot the greenskins while they are standing exposed and packed together on the back of the truck.
Soup and a roll wrote:If you want to worry about realism, worry about why your bolter marines can't shoot the greenskins while they are standing exposed and packed together on the back of the truck.
haha good point!
I suppose ill just starting blowing them up with other squads first then ripping them apart after they fall out with a different squad?
however that brings back my last point of declaring shooting of all squads at the start of the the shooting phsae or 1 by 1
Soup and a roll wrote:If you want to worry about realism, worry about why your bolter marines can't shoot the greenskins while they are standing exposed and packed together on the back of the truck.
haha good point!
I suppose ill just starting blowing them up with other squads first then ripping them apart after they fall out with a different squad?
however that brings back my last point of declaring shooting of all squads at the start of the the shooting phsae or 1 by 1
For a rules reference, check p15 under "The Shooting Sequence". You pick a unit to shoot with, go through the whole sequence, then move onto the next unit.
I agree with your premise that the anti-vehicle waeapon would attempt to destroy the Trukk first, then the Bolters would be used to mop up.
Seems the sensible way of doing things.
FilbertoFrog wrote:Also on the more realistic note, i mean as in real life
Squad of say 15 soliders one with missile launcher; Squad leader shouts hold fire, everyone holds, missile launcher destroys armored car and everyone else opens fire as the dazed and confused troops pile out of it.
You can do that in 40K but it takes two turns.
FilbertoFrog wrote:
or can you declare 1 unit then resolve that, then move onto the next unit? In effect you could alter your shooting tactics dependant on what happens with other units shooting results?
Yes. So, one unit nails the transport and the other nails the occupants.
And, yes, this is a simplification that doesn't make any logical sense. It's just for consistency and to make the game more playable.
My squad doesn't have the time to wait and see if it's missile launcher pops a hole in that rhino, but the neighboring squad has time to see if our missile works before they decide what to shoot.
SaintHazard wrote:Consider that everything that happens in three hours in a single game is probably happening in about five minutes on a real battlefield.
Actually, if you look at a) the effective range of what appear to be modern weapons, b) the movement speed of various units, and c) way "number of shots" is organized for most weapons, it seems reasonable to assume that a turn takes about an hour. What is off-scale is the physical size of the models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/14 00:42:54
SaintHazard wrote:Consider that everything that happens in three hours in a single game is probably happening in about five minutes on a real battlefield.
Actually, if you look at a) the effective range of what appear to be modern weapons, b) the movement speed of various units, and c) way "number of shots" is organized for most weapons, it seems reasonable to assume that a turn takes about an hour. What is off-scale is the physical size of the models.
There's no good way to determine how long a game is supposed to last, because translating game elements into "reality" is really inconsistent.
A standard model on foot can move+assault 12" in a single turn. A bolter can fire 24", a pistol 12". But, you can only fire 1 shot from a pistol, 2 from a bolter, and only 3 or 4 from the most quickly firing weapon available in a turn.
So, if you calibrate to distance covered, it appears that a turn represents the amount of time someone can run the maximum distance of a pistol, or 1/2 the distance of an assault rifle. Depending on your estimates, this is on the order of 10 minutes to much longer. But, that would mean these are the slowest rate-of-fire weapons ever used in warfare of any kind.
If you calibrate to the rate-of-fire, assuming weaponry is semi-automatic, a turn can only few seconds. In an entire game, a model with a pistol will only fire 6 shots, not even needing to reload in that time. Even assuming they take time to fully aim, an entire game can't last much longer than a minute. But, this means that the weaponry has incredibly short range (translating to only 10 yards or so) or that in the year 40,000 everyone runs way faster than a cheetah.
Plus, if you look at CC, a standard model only gets 2 attacks per turn (1 in yours, 1 in opponents), which also means a turn lasts only a few seconds.
There's simply no way to reconcile these differences in a way that makes the game sensible.
It's also entirely conceivable that "two shots" from a bolter isn't "two shots" in reality. "Two shots" might represent "two emptied clips" or "twenty shots" or any other reasonable number for an assault rifle, but the bottom line is that "two shots from a bolter" simply means that a bolter fires twice as many shots as a pistol, but 2/3 the number of shots as a heavy bolter. If the pistol fires ten shots, the bolter fires twenty, and the heavy bolter fires thirty, the numbers are consistent. In which case the assault cannon could conceivably fire forty, and a punisher gatling cannon fires two hundred!
Number of shots may not be a 1:1 representation of actual number of shots fired, but simply a representation of that weapon's rate of fire.
There is nothing particularly wrong about thinking that, but there is no reason to think that a dice = X many shots.
Instead, you can think of as the rate of fire offering chances to kill multiple targets. For instance, a lascannon shot can only ever kill one target, while a rapid firing weapon might kill 2 targets. That doesn't mean that the lascannon shoots once and the rapid fire weapon shoots twice, but rather that they put out sufficient fire output of their type to inflict that kind of damage.
The system is too abstract to try and reconcile it, its best left alone.
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Grakmar wrote:A standard model on foot can move+assault 12" in a single turn. A bolter can fire 24", a pistol 12". But, you can only fire 1 shot from a pistol, 2 from a bolter, and only 3 or 4 from the most quickly firing weapon available in a turn.
One shot in game doesn't represent a single firing of a weapon, and one CC attacke doesn't represent one swing, it's just the cumulative effect of all of your firing/swinging over the course of the turn. All tabletop and board games work like this, even super-detailed games like Advanced Squad Leader don't try to model each individual trigger pull as a shot.
Are you really going to tell me that you think a fully automatic heavy bolter only fires 3 shots at a time?
But, if models are assumed to be firing continuously, then that brings up the problem with units that move+fleet+charge or just move+charge a total more than 12".
If my 1 shot with my pistol is supposed to represent a stream of bullets, then surely I can fire at a unit before it can close into CC. But, since you can't, the only logical solution I can think of is that a unit can move that 12"+ in the time in between my single shots.
And, it doesn't make sense for things like missile launchers. Sure, a single missile can scatter away and miss it's target, but if a turn lasts 10 minutes or more, I'd get off multiple missiles, and surely they all aren't going to miss at exactly the same location.
yeah!
There's just an acre of you fellas, isn't there? 
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