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By Spam - I mean 8 or more.....

Does the answer invlove spamming Lascannons and Missile Launchers? Or going with mobile melta's on bikes? Or something else?

Im thinking spamming lascannons is where I should go.... about 55% of the time a single shot from a lasccanon will have NO effect on a chimera head on, 45% for Rhino's. Ball-parking it, I need 2 Lascannons for each chasis I want to effect. So about 18 would do at 1850. points....

Spamming Lascannons would give me
3x maximum DEV squads a couple of sternguard each with 2x lascannons and bikes as troops with MM Attack bikes
16 lascannons and 2 MM's

OR

Spamming MM's on bikes would give me
2 full bike squads with 2x MG and a MM AB
3 bikes squads with 4 bikes 2x MG and a MM AB
3 AB squads each with 3 MM
14 MM's and 10 MG's

Meltas.

Las cannons are overrated if you're fighting mech heavy armies

Drop pod mm/hf dreads

Mm/hf land speeders

Drop pod melta+mm tac squads

Go salamanders to boot.

I play Mech IG, and the only thing in the Space Marined Codex that I can't deal with are LOTS O' BIKES.

Doesn't matter how you kit them up (which Melta/Plasma & some Flamers too would be best).

I have a buddy that I use to table all the time with every build he tried (even razor spam), and now he does Bike spam, and it wrecks.

Fast, versitile, tough, cheap, spam, spam, spam.

Actually i use plasma and melta weapons for mech heavy armies. And I pod some vanguard right behind the enemy tanks then i assualt and kill everyone.

Then you're playing noobs.

Against Drop Pods I reserve everyone and come in turn 2, and nuke every vehicle, and drop pod unit in range (with a 3+ on the reserve roll and re-roll to outflank)

Outflanking Vendettas, Deep Striking Stormtroopers, and Melta Vets, Melta CCS, Melta PCS does a nice job against 99% of all Space Marine units.... Except for Bikes 3+ Cover save (turbo boost), plus the ability to assault me on the next turn is very sobering.

I'd imagine that Rifleman Dreadnoughts, Typhoon Speeders and Combi-Predators would all be your best options supported by Meltaguns in Troop squads.

All of these have 48" S7+ firepower for around 100 points.

The dred w/ double TL auto cannon is excellent at popping chimeras and they are super cheap. If I played marines I think I would always make room for one.

mrfantastical wrote:Then you're playing noobs.

Against Drop Pods I reserve everyone and come in turn 2, and nuke every vehicle, and drop pod unit in range (with a 3+ on the reserve roll and re-roll to outflank)

Outflanking Vendettas, Deep Striking Stormtroopers, and Melta Vets, Melta CCS, Melta PCS does a nice job against 99% of all Space Marine units.... Except for Bikes 3+ Cover save (turbo boost), plus the ability to assault me on the next turn is very sobering.

Drop pods lot more effective versus razorback spam than chimera spam.

At that point all drop pods would do is ensure IG doesn't attempt to alpha strike. The Marine player can choose to pop smoke on any dreads that come in, or hold dreads in reserve and drop pod his tac squads in next to cover follow by a run into cover. It's not an ideal situation, but it is better than being on the receiving end of an IG alpha strike. On the down side the game is still heavily dependent on who gets the 2nd turn as the player who goes 2nd will have a heavy advantage throughout the game.

Speaking of bikes...How do you feel about 20 scout bikers capible of a 1st turn assault with a 3+ cover from a scout move turbo boost and FNP because they are in a BA army

It makes me a sad panda when I don't get to fight IG in a tournament.

Bikerlists are definitively the best way to take down mech guard. It is not as awesome against SW's, as they have murderous hurricane which is really mean to bikers, and they can also often fight pretty well, which is another problem for bikers. They often also have a higher value of S8+ weapons, which is bad news for your attackbikes.

My lists generally have enough longrange/high strength(S7+, or S6 w/rending) shots to disable at the least 3-5 AV10-12 transports a turn. By this I mean Plasma(PC in tacs, plasma guns are also good), Autocannon(either dread or predator mounted), Missile Launchers(typhoons, tacticals where they're free, or cyclone launchers), Lascannon(combi preds are a prime source), Assault cannon(a long shot vs AV12, but a rend can help out massively here)or Multi-Melta(speeder or attack bike mounted).
Don't worry about destroying all transports on the first turn, if you stop them from moving and/or shooting you've done your job. The issue with relying only on meltas to deal your damage is their range, though you don't really have to worry about the "melta" rule to pop a transport generally, as an AP1 S8 shot can do the job nicely. the other issue is that melta delivery systems are usually fragile platforms and it's no good sacrificing 100 pts of MM attack bikes to pop a 40 to 75 pt razorback.

Basically to fight any mechanized force(that is to say 4/5ths of all 5th edition armies at least) you need a source of longrange, high strength shots, as well as some melta to deal with heavier armor. The melta can pop lighter stuff, but if it's a bad trade, don't sacrifice it. Even non mechanized armies have MCs or other high toughness targets to shoot your high strength shots at.

Habitually in my codex marines army I pack some of the following:
2 land speeder typhoons, run singly
2+ MM speeders or bikes(MM/HF speeders if I have the points)
2 combi las/AC preds
2 twin TLAC "rifleman" dreads
a smattering of tactical squad ML/PC/PGs, the odd Conversion Beamer(okay, so that one is rarer)
And of course sometimes all of the above.

My chaos marines have more trouble, I usually pack 4-8 meltaguns and 6 lascannons/multi-melta(sometimes I sub two oblits for 3x autocannons in a havoc squad).

Codex space marines can fit loads of longrange high strength shots on the relative cheaps into any FoC they chose, it's really not that hard.

Scout Bikes.

They take some learning to use, but they greatly disrupt parking lot armies.

the best thing to drop Transports is a couple Rifleman dreadnoughts. 4 TL Str7 shots should drop a transport a turn. Sniper dreds(Lascannon and missile) are also good.

Hunter killers are cheap(if a little hit or miss)

Devestators are just bad and overcosted.

Sternguard with Combi-Meltas in Drop Pods, along with Dreadnoughts and some long range anti-tank in your Deployment Zone.

Unleash the fury. I also like Scouts with Combi-Meltas in Land Speeder Storms against this, whether you're outflanking or getting a first turn assault on stationary Chimeras with Krak Grenades, or if you're really fortunate, wrecking the Chimera and assaulting the Guardsmen inside.

Spam them right back!

Id rather not Spam them back - I think Ill go with the Bikes and Rifle Dreds

I've heard a bit of talk of Typhoon squads to outflank are really successful. Does anyone have any experience with this. What I have heard is that the 6 krak missiles per into the IG flank will both clog up the field preventing them getting their armor across the table. When the guardsmen bail out then the 6 frag missiles chew them up. The talk I have heard is that the Typhoons are generally paired up with Land Raiders, Vindicators, Predators or Riflemen Dreads so many opponents don't give them appropriate fire priority. I would be curious to hear what others have experienced as I too am looking to tackle this same issue with my Ultramarines.

Speeders can't outflank, but they can get to the flank of an enemy by turboboosting just as quickly(and more reliably too)

Typhoons generally should stay back at the edge of the board and throw shots down range.

opponents will either ignore them or divert more fire power then they are worth destroying them.


if you have a Landraider with Assault terminators and 3-4 Rhinos with Tac or combat squads in them the Speeders pair well as they provide covering fire. they will either recieve the enemy's anti-tank for the entire turn bringing them down OR will be ignored in which case they will do alot of damage and allow your damaged forces to attack his damaged forces with Missile support

Land Speeder Storms can outflank. Maybe that's what he meant.

kaiservonhugal wrote:By Spam - I mean 8 or more.....

Does the answer invlove spamming Lascannons and Missile Launchers? Or going with mobile melta's on bikes? Or something else?

Im thinking spamming lascannons is where I should go.... about 55% of the time a single shot from a lasccanon will have NO effect on a chimera head on, 45% for Rhino's. Ball-parking it, I need 2 Lascannons for each chasis I want to effect. So about 18 would do at 1850. points....

Spamming Lascannons would give me
3x maximum DEV squads a couple of sternguard each with 2x lascannons and bikes as troops with MM Attack bikes
16 lascannons and 2 MM's

OR

Spamming MM's on bikes would give me
2 full bike squads with 2x MG and a MM AB
3 bikes squads with 4 bikes 2x MG and a MM AB
3 AB squads each with 3 MM
14 MM's and 10 MG's

spam missile launchers or spam melta weapons.

Monster Rain wrote:Land Speeder Storms can outflank. Maybe that's what he meant.

ONLY if they are carrying Scouts who are specified that they are outflanking. they don't have Scout or Outflank themselves.

Grey Templar wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Land Speeder Storms can outflank. Maybe that's what he meant.

ONLY if they are carrying Scouts who are specified that they are outflanking. they don't have Scout or Outflank themselves.

Obviously you'd want scouts in it, but are you sure about that last bit? I'm about 99% sure the storm has the Scout special rule.

it does. you dont need the scouts to get it.

Holy gak there's some questionable advice on Dakka these days.

Monster Rain is right, Land Speeder Storms have scouts so they can scout move or outflank. No need for the scouts inside.

@OP

This about it logically brotha, what is mathematically your most efficient tool for destroying av11?

strength 8 krak has a 2/3 chance of hitting 1/6 chance of glancing, and a 1/2 chance of pinning. Let's call it a 4/9 chance of damaging the Razorback. About even odds.

2 twin linked strength 7 autocannon shots from a dread have a 2/3 chance of hitting with both shots, 1/6 to glance with each, 1/3 to pen. That gives you a roughly 1/3 chance of damaging the vehicle. That doesn't take into account possibly rolling twice on the damage table, but these are rough numbers.

The las cannon gives you some odds to hit as the krak, 1/6 to glance 2/3 to punch, 5/9 to damage the vehicle.

So, despite what nay sayers may nay about, las cannons are not over rated and in fact, as an imperial player if you don't take a few, you are really shooting yourself in the foot unless you have lots of very fast melta weapons to compensate.

Melta weapons, assuming they are in melta range, are your best bet as they have a 11/12 chance of punching an av11 tank if they hit, but you have to get them there.

In order to really effectively counter razorspam, you need lots of guns or lots of fast assault units and preferably means to increase your odds of going first, like Sicarius. The reason being that Razorbacks are glass hammers, if you can hit them first them are likely to go down fast.

Typhoons, missile launcher devatstator squads, rifleman dreads, godhammer land raiders, combat squaded tactical squads with las cannons and melta guns in vehicles of your own, sternguard in pods with combi weapons (they can combat squad out of a pod), MM attack bikes and speeders, etc. are your best bet. You need volume of fire to hit all of his targets. Just bring lots of guns to hit his lots of targets and you'll be OK.

Hope that helps.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah, and don't forget shrike. If you build a list around him, you can have oodles of units assaulting turn one and krak grenades on immobile rear av10 vehicles is fun times. If you go second, you can always outflank or reserve and deny him targets.

autocannons are indeed stronger for busting these kinds of tanks but vanilla marines dont have very many ways to put them into action.

missile launchers are abundantly available, cheap, and in some variants have a rate of fire equal to that of an autocannon. they can also perform an anti-horde rule as needed.

the issue with lascannons is the expense. the extra point of strength and one lower ap is imo not worth the extra expense of upgrading. since cover is so prevalent rate of fire is likely to prove more telling than high strength.

meltas are of course awesome, assuming you're playing a close in game. since vulkan/flamer/melta/drop pod spam is probably the strongest marine army right now thats probably the way to go.

I agree with your logic. I prefer them on Razorbacks, Dreads, and in Tac squads. The ability to punch TEQs and that extra point of strength give you the edge you need if you are fighting heavy armor. I never leave home without a few of them.

The rifleman dread is the only viable platform for auto cannons in a C:SM list, and they work great against pretty much any army, baring av14 spam of course. I have several of them and use them pretty frequently, but in tournaments I always sub them out for the las cannon/DCCW/HF variant as they tend to be more useful all around.