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So this recently came up in a conversation with me and my friend (keep in mind I was a bit drunk during the convo and still am quite buzzed)

Me wrote:
"Models embarked on transports cannot be effected by models on the board"

Example:Nid with Shadows in the warp is within 12 inches of a LRC with a Librarian inside, the librarian does NOT have to take its modified psychic test because it is safe inside the transport.

However

"Models embarked on transports CAN affect models on the board"

Example: A Sanguinary priest is inside of a LRC, this means that any friendly unit within 6" of the LRC's hull gains the benefits of the Chalice of Blood.

So in the event that Eldrad, inside of a Wave Serpent, casts Fortune on a nearby squad of warwalkers. With a Furiouso librarian within 24" the following applies.

Eldrad May cast Fortune on the warwalkers (assuming they are within range) as models embarked on transports may affect models on the board (it is also worth noting that Fortune does NOT require LOS so the lack of Access point on the Wave serpent does not matter) and Eldrad need not concern himself with the Psychic Hood as the Librarian is on the board and, models embarked on transports cannot be effected by models on the board.

In the same light, if Eldrad is NOT in a transport (or in a DIFFERENT transport) he cannot cast fortune or guide on a unit in a DIFFERENT transport as he would be a model on the board (or checking range from a model on the board, if he is embarked) so he cannot effect the OTHER "Embarked unit"

Please for the love of god, YMDC, use the rules to prove me wrong... (I REALLY don't want to be right on this one as a new Space Wolf player).

Thanks,

~DAR

Because SitW FAQ is wrong, based on rules and any kind of sense?

You can affect models inside a transport through for example Eldar Runes which force the 3D6 leadership test. Or one psychic hood affecting another psyker inside a transport.

Eldrad cannot affect a unit inside a transport in your examples as the BRB FAQ specifically states you cannot cast psychic powers into a transport.

nosferatu1001 wrote: Or one psychic hood affecting another psyker inside a transport.

Nos, no offense, but you really should start referencing rules when you make claims like this. The major issue is the lack of rules supporting this statement (as the Psychic hood specifically calls for the MODEL using the psychic power to be within 24" of the MODEL with Psychic hood, and when a model is embarked in a transport, it is not within 24" of the model with a Psychic hood, the transport in which the psyker is embarked on is within the range.

So again, are there any rules which support Nos' statements, or is this really a situation where "We've been doin it wrong"


Also consider the wording on Runes of Warding before using it as an example... it does not have a range, nor does it care the source of the psychic test (as the other forms of PsyDef do).

Page 66, Tells you how to measure to units (which are made up of models) inside transports.

Measuring to a unit is not the same as measuring to a model.

forkbanger wrote:Measuring to a unit is not the same as measuring to a model.

If they were then Doom's (the tyranid unit, not the eldar spell) abilities would(should) work on embarked models, as would the Nurgle Daemonic Gift "Aura of Decay" hit models embarked on transports.

Except Doom DOES work on embarked models, RAW. The FAQ went against that and made it more like an ormal shooting attack.

Given none of your examples listed rules (they really didnt) pointing out I didnt is hypocritical. I can measure to units made of models just fine.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except Doom DOES work on embarked models, RAW. The FAQ went against that and made it more like an ormal shooting attack.

Given none of your examples listed rules (they really didnt) pointing out I didnt is hypocritical. I can measure to units made of models just fine.

So then, you would say it is ok to shoot at models embarked in a transport based on page 66 statement of "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for ITS shooting) this range is measure to or from the vehicle's hull"?

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except Doom DOES work on embarked models, RAW. The FAQ went against that and made it more like an ormal shooting attack.

Given none of your examples listed rules (they really didnt) pointing out I didnt is hypocritical. I can measure to units made of models just fine.

So then, you would say it is ok to shoot at models embarked in a transport based on page 66 statement of "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for ITS shooting) this range is measure to or from the vehicle's hull"?

No, because you are unable to target them. There is a difference between being able to measure a range and declaring a unit as a target for your shooting.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except Doom DOES work on embarked models, RAW. The FAQ went against that and made it more like an ormal shooting attack.

Given none of your examples listed rules (they really didnt) pointing out I didnt is hypocritical. I can measure to units made of models just fine.

So then, you would say it is ok to shoot at models embarked in a transport based on page 66 statement of "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for ITS shooting) this range is measure to or from the vehicle's hull"?

Please show how you are fulfilling the requirements to target the unit.

You have shown range, but have not shown another key requirement. Its a very simple mistake...

There is really nothing in the rules that states that "embarked (models)units may not be targeted by shooting attacks".

I'm pretty sure it goes down to whatever the justification was for the Doom/SitW rulings were. I have been under the impression that embarked models were not subject to affects of models on the board (another example would be Crucible of Malediction, at least for another few weeks anywho).

Granted, I am happy being wrong, and now as I'm reviewing the material, there does not seem to be a clear cut answer either way (however, most of the FAQ rulings seem in favor of the "Embarked can't be affected" stance) so I guess I can be happy taking advantage of this 'unanswered question' until a final answer is given.

There really is. Have you relloked at the very basic shooting rules again?

There are a number of requirements you must fulfill in order to be able to target a unit. Range is one of them, which page 66 covers. You have yet to show another one of those requirements is fulfilled.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except Doom DOES work on embarked models, RAW. The FAQ went against that and made it more like an ormal shooting attack.

Given none of your examples listed rules (they really didnt) pointing out I didnt is hypocritical. I can measure to units made of models just fine.

So then, you would say it is ok to shoot at models embarked in a transport based on page 66 statement of "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for ITS shooting) this range is measure to or from the vehicle's hull"?

Please show how you are fulfilling the requirements to target the unit.

You have shown range, but have not shown another key requirement. Its a very simple mistake...

So you are saying, that if you go with GW's suggestion, you are giving a massive advantage to your opponent?

Well shooting attacks, or attacks that require targetting to a unit in a transport don't work. As you can't target a unit in a transport as they are not in view (as they're within a transport)

However, with the DoM his power doesn't require targetting it is in an aura, and had to be FAQd to NOT hit models in transports. So with a psychic hood, you don't need to target the psyker, you just need to be in range of it. It hasn't been FAQd to not work, so it does. =]

Oshova

Good, you found it then.

And rather than acknowledge that you were wrong in stating there was nothing in the rules that prevented targetting, when there really was, you attempt to deflect it into a strawman argument.

Well done. Bravo.

Shooting at a unit, Shadow in the Warp and Psychic Hoods require measurement to a model.
You can't use the measurement to a unit detailed on p66 to check range to a specific embarked model.

So a psyker in a transport is immune to psychic hoods . . . I need some of these magic transports . . .

Oshova

Oshova wrote:So a psyker in a transport is immune to psychic hoods . . . I need some of these magic transports . . .

Maybe. Shadow in the Warp doesn't affect embarked psykers, and psychic hoods specifically measure to models. Other FAQs don't address the psychic defense issue, so...

fb - incorrect. SHooting at a unit requires measuring to the unit and tracing ine of sight to a model.

nosferatu1001 wrote:fb - incorrect. SHooting at a unit requires measuring to the unit and tracing ine of sight to a model.

p16, The Shooting Sequence boxout
"Check range. At least one target model must be within range of the weaponry of your firing models.
p17, Check Range
"When you're checking range, simply measure from each firer to the nearest visible model in the target unit.

Range measures to models, not units.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Good, you found it then.

And rather than acknowledge that you were wrong in stating there was nothing in the rules that prevented targetting, when there really was, you attempt to deflect it into a strawman argument.

Well done. Bravo.

If you are saying the transport counts a the same "model" in terms of Psychic Hoods working, why can't I say its the same "Model" in terms of shooting at it.

Its not a straw man argument, you just "have to be right" so you refuse to actually look at the other points of view and acknowledge the fact that the BRB does not address this situation either way, and due to that fact, the FAQs are really the only source material we have to work with on this issue, and as I have pointed out, the FAQs tend to support the "Can't affect an embarked model with things on the board".

No straw man, and not really an argument either, as typically arguments are two claims supported by evidence, and in this situation, there is only one claim with evidence support it (I.E. the one that uses FAQs and in game scenarios as evidence...)

forkbanger wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:fb - incorrect. SHooting at a unit requires measuring to the unit and tracing ine of sight to a model.

p16, The Shooting Sequence boxout
"Check range. At least one target model must be within range of the weaponry of your firing models.
p17, Check Range
"When you're checking range, simply measure from each firer to the nearest visible model in the target unit.

Range measures to models, not units.

Page 3:
When measuring distances between two units, use the closest models as your reference points, as shown in the diagram below. So, for example, if any model in a unit is within 2" of an enemy unit/model, the unit is said to be within 2" of that enemy unit/model.

[code]

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Good, you found it then.

And rather than acknowledge that you were wrong in stating there was nothing in the rules that prevented targetting, when there really was, you attempt to deflect it into a strawman argument.

Well done. Bravo.

If you are saying the transport counts a the same "model" in terms of Psychic Hoods working, why can't I say its the same "Model" in terms of shooting at it.

Possibly because that isnt the argument I made? Definition of a strawman when you start making up other arguments pretending I made them....

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Its not a straw man argument, you just "have to be right" so you refuse to actually look at the other points of view and acknowledge the fact that the BRB does not address this situation either way, and due to that fact, the FAQs are really the only source material we have to work with on this issue, and as I have pointed out, the FAQs tend to support the "Can't affect an embarked model with things on the board".

Sigh. You made an incorrect claim (there are really no rules preventing you from shooting embarked units, was your argument in essence) and you were shown to be 100% wrong on this.

No interpretation needed. I AM right and you ARE wrong on this, yet instead of having the guts to actually admit that your rules knowledge failed on such a simple point you attempted to construct a strawman argument (that following a suggestion that lets you remember which unit is in which transport somehow makes you able to target the embarked unit. Hilarious fail there) to deflect attention away from your failure.

You are now attempting to take this conclusion on one specific point and pretend it applies elsewhere. Doubly hilarious attempt at altering context. Bravo. Well done!

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:No straw man, and not really an argument either, as typically arguments are two claims supported by evidence, and in this situation, there is only one claim with evidence support it (I.E. the one that uses FAQs and in game scenarios as evidence...)

SO the evidence from the rulebook showing you are wrong isnt good enough?

Triple fail. You get extra points fort hat.

Gwar! wrote:Page 3:
When measuring distances between two units, use the closest models as your reference points, as shown in the diagram below. So, for example, if any model in a unit is within 2" of an enemy unit/model, the unit is said to be within 2" of that enemy unit/model.

p66, Embarking
If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit, this range is emasured to or from the vehicle's hull.

None of these rules provide for measureing to an embarked model, and measuring to a model is required for checking range for shooting, for use of psychic hoods, and for Shadow in the Warp.

Unless you're trying to say that measuring to the abstract of the 'unit' satisfies requirements for measuring to models, in which case Hive Guard will be able to shoot embarked units.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Triple fail. You get extra points fort hat.

Comments like this step over the line and turn what should be a spirited but polite debate into something more along the lines of a full blown argument. Pretty much all of the posters in this thread so far have been here long enough to be able to use their, no doubt, vast reserves of sense, good character and innate niceness to avoid this spiralling in this fashion which would, alas, result in wrists being slapped, warnings being sent and the whole sad, inevitable rigmarole that follows on from that. Ta.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sigh. You made an incorrect claim (there are really no rules preventing you from shooting embarked units, was your argument in essence) and you were shown to be 100% wrong on this.

No interpretation needed. I AM right and you ARE wrong on this, yet instead of having the guts to actually admit that your rules knowledge failed on such a simple point you attempted to construct a strawman argument (that following a suggestion that lets you remember which unit is in which transport somehow makes you able to target the embarked unit. Hilarious fail there) to deflect attention away from your failure.

NO! You are missing the point. My "incorrect statement" was based off of the fantasy world you seem to be living in where Doom's rules (and psychic hoods for example) would apply to models embarked on a transport.

If you are saying that the ability to measure range from the hull allows the unit to be targeted via the hull by abilities such as Psychic Hoods and Doom's abilities then my statement (in this fantasy world) of 'you can shoot the unit inside a transport' would work.

In the real world, we both seem to agree that a model has to exist on the board to be targeted (for instance in LoS for shooting), so if you are saying that the model/unit is not present for the purposes of being shot at/targeted, HOW do you justify being able to his with abilities such as Doom's rules or psychic hoods (as the model does not exist on the board).

nosferatu1001 wrote:
SO the evidence from the rulebook showing you are wrong isnt good enough?

If the evidence from the rulebook applied to my points/this discussion, it would be good enough... however, I can say that the rules for Infiltration effect your ability to use Rending weapons, but that doesn't mean that my statement is in anyway valid... (Much like your reference to page 66)

~Edit~

Just as a heads up reds8n, I don't mind when people insult me. It shows me that their claims are more based on their emotional stake in the argument instead of the logical one (helping reassure my doubts to their points).

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Just as a heads up reds8n, I don't mind when people insult me.

..well, you would say that wouldn't you ! Fascist !

..am I doing it right ?

I'm glad you weren't too offended, and I sure that, deep down inside them all, practically no one here really means to insult or belittle ( overly) another poster. BUt it makes for a more pleasant and,frankly, smarter and more intelligent debate if we refrain from simply yelling FAIL 111 YOU R THE SUCK etc etc at each other.

..you be-feathered monstrosity !

DAR - This is your quote:

DAR wrote:There is really nothing in the rules that states that "embarked (models)units may not be targeted by shooting attacks".

This is categorically, 100% wrong. As was proven. Yet instead of admitting you were wrong in your assertion, you attempted to deflect by trying to claim somehow you could target embarked units by following a suggestion on how to make unit identification easier. Which is just wrong.

Dooms rules affect embarked models, ignoring the FAQ, because it requires you to measure to units. This you can do by page 66. It is not a shooting weapon, so you dont need LOS, and is not a PSA so the BRB errata statement about Psychic powers does not apply. So because it has permission, it affects units inside a transport.

The FAQ, not errata, removed this capability, along with other stupid rulings such as SitW and transports and mycetic spores and ICs.

I most specifically do NOT agree that a model has to be on the board to be targetted, as I can happily cast psychic powers such as "guide" while within a transport, as long as I target my own unit.

Disproving your theory somewhat.

nosferatu1001 wrote:DAR - This is your quote:

DAR wrote:There is really nothing in the rules that states that "embarked (models)units may not be targeted by shooting attacks".

This is categorically, 100% wrong. As was proven. Yet instead of admitting you were wrong in your assertion, you attempted to deflect by trying to claim somehow you could target embarked units by following a suggestion on how to make unit identification easier. Which is just wrong.

And it is in this that you are COMPLETELY missing the point. If there was a [sarcasm] I would use it in this scenario as my INCORRECT STATEMENT was BASED OFF OF YOUR STATEMENT that says that due to page 66 you can affect MODELS embarked on transports (you are basically saying, "if you are in range of the vehicle, as described on page 66, you are on the board", and if the following statement is true then that means you can TARGET the unit if you are IN RANGE ((WHICH IS NOT THE CASE))

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Dooms rules affect embarked models, ignoring the FAQ, because it requires you to measure to units. This you can do by page 66. It is not a shooting weapon, so you dont need LOS, and is not a PSA so the BRB errata statement about Psychic powers does not apply. So because it has permission, it affects units inside a transport.

NO IT DOESN'T as just because it has range to the hull, does not mean that it has range to the UNIT which is, as stated on the SAME PAGE OF THE RULE BOOK YOU REFER TO, no longer on the board.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The FAQ, not errata, removed this capability, along with other stupid rulings such as SitW and transports and mycetic spores and ICs.

I most specifically do NOT agree that a model has to be on the board to be targetted, as I can happily cast psychic powers such as "guide" while within a transport, as long as I target my own unit.

It is the same FAQ that allows you to target your own unit from within a transport... (meaning that WITHOUT the FAQ, you would NOT be able to) If not, one could assume that you can guide a squad of striking scorpions that has yet to arrive from reserves with a farseer that has yet to arrive from reserves...

FOOTNOTE: I use CAPS to note emphasis, not to imply shouting, in case anyone was curious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

reds8n wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Just as a heads up reds8n, I don't mind when people insult me.

..well, you would say that wouldn't you ! Fascist !

..am I doing it right ?

I'm glad you weren't too offended, and I sure that, deep down inside them all, practically no one here really means to insult or belittle ( overly) another poster. BUt it makes for a more pleasant and,frankly, smarter and more intelligent debate if we refrain from simply yelling FAIL 111 YOU R THE SUCK etc etc at each other.

..you be-feathered monstrosity !

:EDIT:

One love

But obviously this also allows you to be stopped through the use of a Psychic Hood, some magic work of Space Wolfy goodness, or some other such psychic defense that works on enemy psykers. =]

Oshova