Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Pardon the stupid question, but I'm having some trouble understanding pinning. I haven't had the chance to play a game or see any in action yet. (We're just now getting a store that supports 40k so the nerdlings in this town are all trying to brush up on the rules) The way I'm reading the rulebook, it sounds like if a unit fails 1 pinning test the entire unit is pinned. Is this accurate? It seems a little too good to be true that a single, solitary gun drone could pin an entire unit, or am I misunderstanding the usage of the word "unit". Is it referring to a single model?
Thanks for the help.

if a squad takes an unsaved wound from a pinning weapn you test for pinning. If you fail the squad is pinned.

So say you pop 6 pulse rifle shots and 6 pulse carbine shots (they have pinning ) into a squad of eldar striking scorpions.

Each does 4 wounds and the eldar player fails only one save (jammy git) on the pulse carbine wound (you'd want to differentiate with different colour dice or roll separately or whatever) He has to take a pinning test and if it fails the unit is pinned.

Nope, unit is unit. It is of a similar scale to failing one morale check can make you run away.

As said, a unit is a unit.

If that sole Gun Drone causes a wound, they have to test for pinning, which if they fail, the whole unit becomes pinned.

You'll find soon enough though that Pinning is rarely a factor, as most things have high enough Ld to regularly pass or are Fearless as well as the fact most pinning weapons are crap, making it a non issue.

G is right though, the high LD normally balances it out. But if you have multiple squads with multiple pinning weapons then it could be more reliable.

Unless I stack several markerlights on the unit before shooting them with something that pins... yes?

bobert wrote:Unless I stack several markerlights on the unit before shooting them with something that pins... yes?

Except thats a waste of a markerlight token! You are better off increasing BS or (especially in 5th) nuking their cover saves.

So very little Tau weaponry pins anyway (the only one I can remember off hand is the Carbine), it's not viable as a main strategy. By all means, remember to make them test if it does happen to cause a wound, but don't bank on it.

I'm sorry I think it's the useage of the word "unit" that is throwing me. When I think unit, I think single,solitary guy. (I work in a police station... lol) Unit in 40k referrs to say... "all 12 fire warriors" is this accurate?

I was under the impression when using a markerlight to raise BS, it would only apply to a single shot from a 'unit' of 12 FW's. Does the whole team get that bonus? If so that makes me very happy though i'm going to have to rework a bit of strategery now :S

bobert wrote:I'm sorry I think it's the useage of the word "unit" that is throwing me. When I think unit, I think single,solitary guy. (I work in a police station... lol) Unit in 40k referrs to say... "all 12 fire warriors" is this accurate?

I was under the impression when using a markerlight to raise BS, it would only apply to a single shot from a 'unit' of 12 FW's. Does the whole team get that bonus? If so that makes me very happy though i'm going to have to rework a bit of strategery now :S

Yeah, a unit in 40k is all the models in squad. So everyone in the unit gets the +1BS.

Hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s vs Marines is very tasty!

bobert wrote:I'm sorry I think it's the useage of the word "unit" that is throwing me. When I think unit, I think single,solitary guy. (I work in a police station... lol) Unit in 40k referrs to say... "all 12 fire warriors" is this accurate?

I was under the impression when using a markerlight to raise BS, it would only apply to a single shot from a 'unit' of 12 FW's. Does the whole team get that bonus? If so that makes me very happy though i'm going to have to rework a bit of strategery now :S

The definition of unit is crucial to the rules. Have a good read of P3 which explains the difference between models and units.

The pinning weapons in the Tau arsenal are the Pulse Carbine, the Rail Rifle (not Rail Gun) and the Airbursting Fragmentation Projector.

Since most armies have either Ld 9-10, or easy upgrades to get it, or Fearless, Pinning does not often happen.

It is still worth remembering though, for the odd occasion when it does by luck pin a Terminator Assault unit or something.

The full explanation of the abilities of Marker Lights is on p.29 of the codex.

Don't let someone persuade you they can get armour, cover or invulnerable saves against Marker Light hits. Saves are only given against wounds, and Marker Lights don't cause wounds.

Scott-S6 wrote:The definition of unit is crucial to the rules. Have a good read of P3 which explains the difference between models and units.

Right I gotcha, it's just an "unlearning" thing with me. I work in a police station so "unit" to me refers to "one" car and that's what keeps throwing me lol

Kilkrazy wrote:The pinning weapons in the Tau arsenal are the Pulse Carbine, the Rail Rifle (not Rail Gun) and the Airbursting Fragmentation Projector.

Airburst causes pinning? Can you tell me where it says that? I can't find it, but if so that'd be awesome. My 'o uses Airburst w/ an ion blaster.

bobert wrote:Airburst causes pinning? Can you tell me where it says that? I can't find it, but if so that'd be awesome. My 'o uses Airburst w/ an ion blaster.

It's a Barrage Weapon. All Barrage Weapons cause Pinning.

Even Ld10 fails to be reliable defense if you cause enough pinning tests. Unlike Morale tests, pinning tests are taken on a weapon by weapon basis. That means that if four Pulse Carbines are fired at a unit and an unsaved wound results from each Pulse Carbine, then four (4) pinning tests are taken.

The problem most people have is that they think a single pinning test isn't enough, so why bother? The thing is that if you cause enough pinning tests, or use special rules to make them more likely, then it's a reliable strategy. Take the Imperial Guard: A Psycker Battle Squad can use Weaken Resolve to aid pinning, Tau can use Markerlights, Dark Eldar used to have Terrorfex Grenades, and so on. Ordnance pinning is always done at a -1 to Leadership.

Something else to consider is that the so-called 'top tier' armies don't have Fearless, while others pay a premium for a rule that can backfire when they lose a close combat. Imperial Guard, Space Wolves, and Space Marines are all non-Fearless and require Chaplains and such to because Fearless. If someone reacts to your pinning weapons by taking Fearless units, get him in multiple assaults and watch the damage multiply out.

Nurglitch wrote:Even Ld10 fails to be reliable defense if you cause enough pinning tests. Unlike Morale tests, pinning tests are taken on a weapon by weapon basis. That means that if four Pulse Carbines are fired at a unit and an unsaved wound results from each Pulse Carbine, then four (4) pinning tests are taken.

I was under the impression the rules weren't clear on this issue, and most people assumed that it means you take 1 pinning test for all the wounds inflicted by a unit.

First I've heard of this. I'm going to see what I can dig up using the new Search function.

It actually says "If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immediately
take a Pinning test. This is a normal Leadership test."

To say, if you are wounded by a pinning weapon, no matter the number of wounds caused by the weapon, one must immediately (before rolling anymore dice for wounding) take a pinning test.

ChrisCP wrote:To say, if you are wounded by a pinning weapon, no matter the number of wounds caused by the weapon, one must immediately (before rolling anymore dice for wounding) take a pinning test.

So if I have 3 biovores fire how do I determine how many rolls are to be made by my opponent?

Minmum of 0 (no wounds), max of 3 test. Use coloured die after determining the number of hits for each template, do the wounding and take saves, failed save on blue=test, failed save on red=test.
Or with lack of die, count hit by each then do each lot of wounding and for each lot of saves then take each pinning test for each weapon for each one that caused one or more wounds.
But having coloured dice sounds easier ^_^

Every opponent I have played has asserted it was one for the brood's firing.

I just left it as their call.

Thanks for the input, I hope it didn't sound antagonistic.

Nah no issue man, I have respect for your cat's and your own reading

Personally, I don't understand how the other interpretation could come about other than laziness "Oh yeah, these guys cause pinning, you took some wonds right?"
Instead of "Okay I'm going to shoot this *insert unit here* at that, they have 3 pinning weapons so lets keep track of what happens here..."

Which is all it come down to, say a squad with 3 S.rifles and some pistols, roll the Rifles deal with their pinning (as it's immediate I guess it's quickest to do it this way) and then take another pinning if 25% casualty.

In fact to try and read it the other way would mean that units only take one test per game! As one has already taken a pinning test due to not saving a wound against a pinning weapon.

The rules put pinning weapons in their own little group a bit furthur down too "the fire of the pinning weapon that
caused the test (or indeed of any other weapon fired
by the same unit that phase)"

ChrisCP wrote:It actually says "If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immediately
take a Pinning test. This is a normal Leadership test."

To say, if you are wounded by a pinning weapon, no matter the number of wounds caused by the weapon, one must immediately (before rolling anymore dice for wounding) take a pinning test.

Seconded. This also means you have to drip feed Pinning weapons rather than engaging in mass rolling.

Nurglitch wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:It actually says "If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immediately
take a Pinning test. This is a normal Leadership test."

To say, if you are wounded by a pinning weapon, no matter the number of wounds caused by the weapon, one must immediately (before rolling anymore dice for wounding) take a pinning test.

Seconded. This also means you have to drip feed Pinning weapons rather than engaging in mass rolling.

But, the rules for shooting require you to roll all to-wound rolls simultaneously.

After all, don't you need to know what model is actually wounded by your shot? And, to know that, don't you need to know the total number of wounds, so your opponent can allocate them?

You won't know if there is any unfailed wounds until you've rolled to wound with every weapon from the squad.

Multiple coloured dice o that jsut fine.

Rolling in batches just makes rolling faster. You could roll each die to wound separately if you want, it wouldn't change the fact that all shots that hit are rolled to wound at the same time prior to allocation and saves, unlike close combat when they get separated by initiative steps so that models can fail savings throws before lower initiative attacks even roll to hit.

Kilkrazy wrote:
Don't let someone persuade you they can get armour, cover or invulnerable saves against Marker Light hits. Saves are only given against wounds, and Marker Lights don't cause wounds.

With the notable exception of obscured vehicles, they get a save against hits.

So hang on, if i cause 3 wounds from carbines from the same unit on the same unit, does my target have to take 3 pinning tests?

Yes; if you cause 3 wounds from 3 different weapons tha tis 3 pinning tests.

nostromo wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
Don't let someone persuade you they can get armour, cover or invulnerable saves against Marker Light hits. Saves are only given against wounds, and Marker Lights don't cause wounds.

With the notable exception of obscured vehicles, they get a save against hits.

That's actually incorrect-vehicles get saves against glancing or penetrating hits. Markerlight neither glances nor penetrates.

Phototoxin wrote:So hang on, if i cause 3 wounds from carbines from the same unit on the same unit, does my target have to take 3 pinning tests?

Unfortunately no.

Carbines have a specific wording in their description that limits the number of tests to only one. However having said that it also states that it the unit takes a wound, note not unsaved wound, they have to take a pinning test. So is a carbine squad inflicts wounds, even if they are all saved the unit still has to take a pinning test.

Cheers

Andrew