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I'm interested in what option is the overal better unit for taking on infantry.

My first instinct is to give it to the Berserkers simply because of the +1 attack and hitting most things on 3's however the ability of the Noise Marines to front load alot of damage thanks to Doom Sirens/Sonic Blasters and a constant I5 may be enough to tip the balance at the start of combat and keep it in their favor.

People often say that I5 is a situational bonus but its just as situational as WS5. Both are dependant on your target but both can function as an offensive and defensive buff.

Have to go with Beserkers on this one. 4 attacks each that hit on 3s with S and I5 on the charge is truly amazing. 8 with a Skull Champion w/ power fist will turn almost everything it hits into mush.

L. Wrex

Zerkers, their whole existance is combat, whereas Noise Marines are not so focused on it... or anything else really...

Has to be the khorne boys... noise marines are the jack of all trades master of none! Zerkers will chew infantry up and spit them out before the noise marines have had a chance to tune their weapons!

I think noise marines are the only faction specific troop that it is difficult to catogorise. You have zerks for CC, plague marines for camping on objectives, thousand sons for taking out power armour and the noise marines for... just being cool I guess, if you've got guitar based weapons atleast and not the lame GW pipes!

Zerkers. Thanks to the fact that they somehow dont have rage, they are very efficient at killing anything as long as they arent out in the open into enemy fire

I can't say that I'm surprised that Berserkers are winning but I thought that the Doom Siren would have been a bigger boost for the Noise Marines.

On paper it seems like a great equalizer since it hits first and anything it kills can't swing back to hurt you. Maybe I'm overestimating it's effectiveness though.

I think it depends on what you count as included in 'assault'. Doomsiren is still points spent and can leave you out of a charge range funny enough.

Sanctjud wrote:I think it depends on what you count as included in 'assault'. Doomsiren is still points spent and can leave you out of a charge range funny enough.

You're right, I might not have been clear enough. By assault, I meant in the more general sense of taking the fight to the opponent's troops and kicking them off of an objective to claim it for your own.

Maybe aggressive would have been a better term.

I voted for Berzerkers. I will say I think Plague Marines should have been included as well in the poll.

As big a fan as I am of Noise Marines, they are best used as ultra-long range static anti-infantry, in my experience. The Doom Siren Champ & co. is great vs. Power Armour, true, but Berzerkers are great against practically anything. Also, I5 is only really useful against other Marines; whereas WS5 is a bigger advantage against a much wider variety of opponents, from Guardsmen to Eldar. I hate to be cliche, but Berzerkers really are the ideal all-purpose CC troops.

When combined with a lash noise marines come up on top, especially against meq. Against geq their guns and cc can cut down geq as well as zerkers.

No, zerkers. If comparing expensive special weapons, you have to factor in that zerkers can take three plasma pistols. Extra attack and WS 5 on fist is very very good.
If you factor in the rhino, you can give the rhino a combi-weapon, giving the zerkers more flexibility.

Berzerkers can threaten armor on the charge. This alone makes them far better than Noise Marines.

A Noise Marine armed with a sonic blaster can generate five to six attacks at S4, two to three from the sonic blaster then another three on the charge. A Berzerker can generate up to five attacks. The Berzerker's attacks are better due to WS5 but still the large number of attacks from the Noise Marines is not bad at all.

But that sonic blaster also makes the noisemarine cost considerably more than the berserker, not to mention....

Noisemarien [on the move]: 2 shots, hit on 3, S4 followed by 3 attacks, WS4, S4.

Berserker: Pistol, hit on 3, S4 followed by 4 attacks, WS5, S5.

The berserker has the SAME number of attacks, but 4 of them are hitting on 3 and wounding at S5 most of the time whereas the noisemarine is likely hitting 3 of them on a 4+ and at S4.

As long as the Berzerkers charge, they will have I5, which is a big part of taking NMs in the first place. In my experience with them I'd have to agree with the above. Noises are excellent medium-long range shooters who also can hold their own in CC if you pay the points for a PW and Siren. Khorne trades the flexibility for specialization. You'd be hard pressed to find something that can survive a charge from Berzerkers that Noise Marines would've been better at killing via assault. Not much question here... honestly they shouldn't even be compared side-by-side; yes they're both troops but they clearly have extremely different roles. Not to knock Slaanesh understand, I love their fluff, they just aren't really up to snuff this codex :(.

Well I use them solely for that Doomsiren - but again, that's something you use OUTSIDE assault. They really need to try to avoid close combat.

Berzerkers, noise marines are way overcosted.

I have a love/Hate relationship with noise marines.

I love the effective Storm bolters on all troops; or the -1shot Assault Heavy Bolter/Blast Krak Missile

But I hate the Cost of the unit; 25 points per model for effectively Storm bolter Marines, and a Heavy Weapon that costs as much as 2 basic troopers is just horrible.

Also their Gear is suited for ranged combat but their Patron/mark makes them suited for assault. 2 I5 attacks/model(3 on the Charge) is great and all but you do the same damage in the 18" leading up to the charge(starting 24" out, but you will lose a turn of shooting when you charge in).

Noise marines truely shine when you take 1-2 Large units of them(10+) with all the Sonic blasters and a Blastmaster(but ignore the Aspiring champion upgrade); then rush those units onto an objective and set-up camp. for the rest of the game you should be able to repel all incoming attacks and survive most shooting, all while dishing out outrageous numbers of shots.

Ah yes, So i voted berzerkers as assault troops.

Noise Marines are better when considered from a perspective of both shooting and assaults. If their sonic blasters can thin out the enemy before assault takes place then that is relevant. Also it's worth keeping in mind that Noise Marines are always I5 and will still strike first in following rounds of close combat after the initial charge. The more enemy models they can eliminate at I5 means the less number of attacks against them at I4 or lower.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Noise Marines are better when considered from a perspective of both shooting and assaults. If their sonic blasters can thin out the enemy before assault takes place then that is relevant. Also it's worth keeping in mind that Noise Marines are always I5 and will still strike first in following rounds of close combat after the initial charge. The more enemy models they can eliminate at I5 means the less number of attacks against them at I4 or lower.

I don't agree. Shooting can sometimes shoot you out of hth, and the lack of dedicated anti-tank shooting hurts them. Also, like I said, you have to factor in that berserkers can take 3 plasma pistols.

On top of that, striking at I5 in the following round is much much worse than WS 5 and +1 attack. The berserker fist hits on 3's and has an extra attack. Also, because berserkers have more attacks and a higher WS and strength, they will kill significantly more on the first turn of combat than noise marines, and you have to factor that into your calculation.

Ignoring SergeantL:
Zerkers on charge: 9*4=36 attacks, 24 hits, 16 wounds vs. meq
Noise Marines: 27 attacks, 13.5 hits, 6.75 wounds.

Nevermind that regardless of what you take on the noise marine sergeant, the berserker sergeant does better with his hidden WS 5, 3 (4 on charge) attack powerfist.

Zerkers, more powar. But I wouldn't say noise marines aren't good assault troops. I5 is certainly usefull against MEQ's, and Noise marines can get their shoot on as they head into the fray- sonic blasters, doom sirens, even giving one of them a blastmaster if you feel fancy. The ability to deal damage on the way in can be very useful, softening up the enemy as your forces close in.

Having said that, though, they really do need a tougher melee unit nearby to make them good in that role. DP, some terminators, possessed (lolol), or some good ol' bezerkers!

so yeah, flexibility vs specialization. You want an assault troop choice, you take bezerkers.

I really wouldn't factor in spending 45 points for 3 shots over the entirety of a game; especially when those 3 shots each have a 1 in 6 chance to harm their firers.

Along with what I had said earlier; sure the Noise marines always have I5, but the 'Zerkers always have +1 attack over them and a higher WS.

lets take everything into account: 2 squads vs 10 Basic marines each, 10 Chaos/squad, Chaos gets the Charge, all models available for attacks:

I5
10 noise marines get to attack the Smurfs before the smurfs retaliate. 30 attacks made, 15 hit, 7.5 wound, 2.5 dead smurfs(round up to 3)

I5
10 'Zerkers get to attack the Smurfs before the smurfs retaliate. 40 attacks made, 26.666 hit, 17.777 wound, 5.925 dead smurfs(round up to 6)

I4
7 Smurfs attack noise marines. 7 attacks made, 3.5 hit, 1.75 wound, .583 dead noise marines(round up to 1)

I4
4 Smurfs attack 'Zerkers. 4 attacks made, 2 hit, 1 wound, .333 dead 'zerkers(round up to 1, just to make things fairer)

Second assault phase

I5
9 noise marines get to attack before the Smurfs. 18 attacks, 9 hit, 4.5 wound, 1.5 dead smurfs(round up to 2)

I4
9 'zerkers make 27 attacks, 18 hit, 9 wound, 3 dead smurfs

I4
5 smurfs make 5 attacks on noise marines, 2.5 hit, 1.25 wound, .416 dead noise marines(round down to none)

I4 4 Smurfs make 4 attacks on "zerkers(simultaneous with the 3 smurfs dieing this phase), 2 hit, 1 wound, .333 dead 'Zerker(round down)

As you can see the noise marines will go through about 2 more assault phases to kill the 1 squad of Space marines, whereas the 'zerkers will over-kill the last Smurf in the next assault phase.


So; yeah Zerkers definitely win in 2-3 assault phases(especially since I did this in a vacuum with equal-sized units on all sides, and no upgrades).

Kommissar Kel wrote:I really wouldn't factor in spending 45 points for 3 shots over the entirety of a game; especially when those 3 shots each have a 1 in 6 chance to harm their firers.

Along with what I had said earlier; sure the Noise marines always have I5, but the 'Zerkers always have +1 attack over them and a higher WS.

lets take everything into account: 2 squads vs 10 Basic marines each, 10 Chaos/squad, Chaos gets the Charge, all models available for attacks:

I5
10 noise marines get to attack the Smurfs before the smurfs retaliate. 30 attacks made, 15 hit, 7.5 wound, 2.5 dead smurfs(round up to 3)

I5
10 'Zerkers get to attack the Smurfs before the smurfs retaliate. 40 attacks made, 26.666 hit, 17.777 wound, 5.925 dead smurfs(round up to 6)

I4
7 Smurfs attack noise marines. 7 attacks made, 3.5 hit, 1.75 wound, .583 dead noise marines(round up to 1)

I4
4 Smurfs attack 'Zerkers. 4 attacks made, 2 hit, 1 wound, .333 dead 'zerkers(round up to 1, just to make things fairer)

Second assault phase

I5
9 noise marines get to attack before the Smurfs. 18 attacks, 9 hit, 4.5 wound, 1.5 dead smurfs(round up to 2)

I4
9 'zerkers make 27 attacks, 18 hit, 9 wound, 3 dead smurfs

I4
5 smurfs make 5 attacks on noise marines, 2.5 hit, 1.25 wound, .416 dead noise marines(round down to none)

I4 4 Smurfs make 4 attacks on "zerkers(simultaneous with the 3 smurfs dieing this phase), 2 hit, 1 wound, .333 dead 'Zerker(round down)

As you can see the noise marines will go through about 2 more assault phases to kill the 1 squad of Space marines, whereas the 'zerkers will over-kill the last Smurf in the next assault phase.


So; yeah Zerkers definitely win in 2-3 assault phases(especially since I did this in a vacuum with equal-sized units on all sides, and no upgrades).

Let's try another scenario.

6 Noise Marines versus 9 smurfs.

smurfs get lashed & eat a doom siren, 6 out of 9 smurfs die.

Noise marines assault. 15 attacks I5=7.5 hits=3.75 wounds=1.25 dead marines

2 smufs fight back=2 attacks, 1 hits, 0.55 wounds, 0.25 dead noise marines

Noise Marine Power fist=3 attacks=1.5 hits=1.2 dead marines

The smurf unit is clearly doomed either in the 1st round of CC or the 2nd.

Noise Marines are built for 1 massive shooting attack to go with their assault, which is very vicious in a double lash list.

Good luck getting off lash agianst that SM player. puppies have hoods up the wazoo, vamps not so much but they do have libby dreads and/or mephy to say high.

Was there ever any doubt?

As someone up there said already, Noise Marines are really Jack of All Trades. They're uber Tactical squads with weapons outfitted for literally any confrontation (blastmaster can fire on the move or standing still, and have drastically different profiles to meet those needs. They also have Sonic Blasters, which are essentially Storm Bolters that get off more shots if they stand still). Berserkers, on the other hand, concentrate solely on close combat. On the charge, they have the same combat effectiveness as a bare naked Space Marine Force Commander (not calling it a captain, since the new captain has a superior WS than before) with a better strength profile, and for literally a third of the price. A skull champ is basically a junior Chaos Lord running around, especially if he's given a power weapon or fist.

I think I saw someone mention Plague Marines a few posts back. I dont think they're suited for actually assaulting enemies, more for sitting and pelting enemies with bolter fire and goating them to charge in. Although if you can get the charge, take it (unless it's against Space Wolves. In that case let them have the charge).