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In another thread concerning BV versus tonnage, the topic keeps coming up that Clan 'Mechs easily defeat the Inner Sphere even when using BV balancing. So let's start a discussion on that topic.

Can an Inner Sphere player win against a Clan force?

In my experience, no. As I explained in that other thread, my brother and my friends have even tried 4 to 1 odds (tonnage-wise) against the Clans and the Clanners still easily win.

Using BV, I can take two of my beloved ARC-2R Archers for about 2800 points against a Timber Wolf (Mad Cat) for just under 2800 points. The T-Wolf will easily win every time. It's faster, more accurate, and has more firepower that both Archers put together.

Even with the Total Warfare updated Inner Sphere technogogy, the Clans still seem to have a serious advantage in range and firepower.

Are there any Inner Sphere players who have had success against the Clan invaders?

What Inner Sphere weapons work best against them and what must an IS player do to survive in the post-3050 eras?

ARC-2R is not a mech I would take against a Timberwolf. Try the ARC-2S instead. The 2R might work well in a lance, but the min range of the LRM's really plays well into the Timberwolf's hands, as it can close and rip the Archers apart. The 2S's have a better bite at range than the T-Wolf and have a decent bite up close.

The trick with 3025 mechs is to engage the clan mechs at a favorable range. This hard to do with fire support mechs. Hunchbacks in tight terrain could probably do it (Assuming that they can force the Timberwolf to fight in that terrain).

Sure, the Inner Sphere can beat the Clans in a BV fight. The difficult thing the Inner Sphere has problems with is their pilots.

In a straight BV game without putting in better pilots, 4/5 Clanners are better because their range is better. When the Clanner is at medium range, and even short range for some weapons, the Inner Sphere pilot might still be at long range!

Staple weapon of the Inner Sphere is the medium laser. Great Inner Sphere weapon. The Clan equivalent has 50% better range, almost identical performance to the IS LARGE laser, for a single ton.

Take a Clan ER large laser. The short range is EIGHT hexes. When our 4/5 pilots get in close think of it this way at range 8, Hunchback vs. Timber Wolf Prime:

Inner Sphere pilot in Hunchback: Gunnery (4) + Run (2) + target movement of 5 hexes (+2) plus Long Range (+4) = 12 to hit. Ouch.

Timber Wolf Pilot: Gunnery (4) + Walk (1) + Target Movement (2) + Range (0)= 8 to hit. 10 with the LRM racks.

In an open field with even pilots, the Clans will win every time. And they should. But take away the advantage of range, and the Clanners aren't as formidable. Increase the tech on the IS machines, and it can become a lot easier. When the Inner Sphere has Gauss Rifles and double heat sinks, the field gets closer. Going even further when the IS has targeting computers and advanced munitions can make it even more even.

Remeber the high cost of a Clan 'Mech with BV. A Timber Wolf Prime is 2732 BV. That is really high, but it is a good 'Mech. It is not without flaws, though. I can counter with a Pillager, with is only 2697 BV. I get a near max-armored, jump-capable 100 ton 'Mech with no heat issues and dual Gauss Rifles. That will be a close fight, and one the Timber Wolf will have a hard time winning.

Clans vs. 3025 tech is mostly a losing cause, and it should be. It would be like taking a race car from 1962 and expecting it to compete with a modern F1 car. It's just silly. And those Archers COULD beat the Timber Wolf, but they would have to have above average luck at long range and do decent damage before the Wolf closed.

Just remember, the t-wolf only gets the +2 target modifier if it only moves straight at a walk. Doesn't happen all that often. More often at longer ranger, and on a completely open map without edges, the T-wolf can back up every turn and still keep a hunchback at range.

Not a likely scenario though.

The key to those kind of match ups is not trying to fight the clanners in a straight up slug fest. They will grind you into dust. The best way to fight clan mechs is up close and personal. Take away their biggest advantage, their range. This requires patience and a map with a good bit of cover. If you just try and rush them expect the clan player to giggle as he picks you apart.

Mattlov wrote:
Clans vs. 3025 tech is mostly a losing cause, and it should be. It would be like taking a race car from 1962 and expecting it to compete with a modern F1 car. It's just silly. And those Archers COULD beat the Timber Wolf, but they would have to have above average luck at long range and do decent damage before the Wolf closed.

Thus the problem with BV. Either BV itself needs to change per era (2750, 3025, 3050, etc) or basic weapons, engine, armor, etc needs to cost substantially less. If you could put apx 4 - 5 IS 3025 heavies vs a Timberwolf at the same value on a standard board, you might see better results than the current 2 to 1 matchups.

Lets be honest...the only reason the Clans got beaten was because they were the "bad guys".

Overall I find IS vs IS (or Clan vs Clan) to be the more fun games. Clan vs IS tends to be a slaughter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Endgame wrote:

Mattlov wrote:
Clans vs. 3025 tech is mostly a losing cause, and it should be. It would be like taking a race car from 1962 and expecting it to compete with a modern F1 car. It's just silly. And those Archers COULD beat the Timber Wolf, but they would have to have above average luck at long range and do decent damage before the Wolf closed.

If you could put apx 4 - 5 IS 3025 heavies vs a Timberwolf at the same value on a standard board, you might see better results than the current 2 to 1 matchups.

This has been true in real life as well. Back in WWII it took aprox 4 US Sherman tanks to take out 1 German Tiger.

Mad4Minis wrote:
If you could put apx 4 - 5 IS 3025 heavies vs a Timberwolf at the same value on a standard board, you might see better results than the current 2 to 1 matchups.

This has been true in real life as well. Back in WWII it took aprox 4 US Sherman tanks to take out 1 German Tiger.

Fantastic analogy!

This is my problem with BV at its current state. It doesn't allow you to take the four Shermans against the Tiger. It makes you take just two - which is only half of what you need for even a fighting chance.

The BV is not balancing the sides from different eras or even the same era if it's Clan versus Inner Sphere.

5000 points of Inner Sphere 'Mechs (3025 or 3050 era) cannot take on 5000 points of Clan 'Mechs. My ARC-2R Archers are 1400 compared to a 2800-point T-Wolf. If the balancing was working, the Archers would cost 700 points. That would give me my four Shermans (the Archers) against the Tiger (the T-Wolf). Now, a T-Wolf (Mad Cat) would have a tough time against an entire lance of Archers. It would probably only win half the time. Against just two Archers, the T-Wolf would win 95% of the time.

Tactics for the IS is important - many voices are saying to get in close - but the BV is a serious handicap for the IS. I find the Clan units drastically undercosted and closing with the Clans is difficult because their mobility can also be superior.

Technology is also brutal. The IS equivelent (similar range and damage) to a Clan ER Medium Laser is a Large Laser which cost FIVE TIMES AS MUCH IN WEIGHT!

Anyhoo, so far we have one piece of helpful advice for the Inner Sphere - GET IN CLOSE!

Actually, the T-Wolf VS Archers is a rock-paper-scissors problem rather than a BV problem. In a balanced lance, the Archer (As a support mech) is worth it's weight in BV. By itself, it isn't.

BV is a flawed calculation in the first place. I don't think they put a great deal of thought into overall combinations possible which are definitely multipliers, not additions. A targetting computer is worth so many BV whether it is on a mech with 4 ER large lasers or 1 small laser. That's why the clans completely wipe the IS in a BV fight. Their mechs have a huge advantage in usage of weight that allows them to incorporate many more systems to increase their overall performance just as standard, that IS mechs can only hope to get in a specialist type mech dedicated to such things, without the space left to mount a ludicrous amount of weapons, double sinks to use them etc. Equipment on mechs is far more complicated than adding up numbers as far as its actual value in a game. Multiples would be a far more complicated equation, but as far as BV goes, what good are 20 double heat sinks on a mech packing machineguns for instance? They still give it a greater BV but its not like they are useful.

One thing where the IS and the clans have a level playing field though is the internal structure and the number of critical slots. That is the only thing the IS can take advantage of. 100 tons will only ever get you 304 points of armor, and will punch just as hard no matter what tech level you are at, and double sinks, XL engines, ferro, endo, and so on leave very little space for weapons, even if the weight allowance can accomodate them, something that old tech IS mechs seldom worry about.

Ummm...Unless I am mistaken, the BV cost of a Targeting Computer is based on the cost of the weapons on the mech.

The issue with Clan / IS fights is that as soon as the clan break their one on one fighting style and start ganging up on a single target they're going to punch big, melty holes into an IS force in short order.

That being said I have won BV balanced 3025 / Clan battles by setting the following rules

IS units must be picked in lances of 4 (6 for Comstar / WoB)
Clan units must be picked in Stars of 5
Clan average pilots must be 2 / 3 g/p

Yes, this last one will increase the effectiveness of the individual clan mechs but will reduce the maximum damage they can inflict per turn by reducing the total number of weapons they can bring to the fight.

If you let the clanners bring three heavy mechs with 3 / 4 gunners vs your lance of heavy / mediums with 3/4 gunners you're going to get hosed. But if they bring a star of five light to mediums at 2/3 and you have a lance of heavies at 4/5 it becomes a much more closely matched games if you follow the IS must play tactic of getting in close and hammering a single target until it falls down.

skyth wrote:Ummm...Unless I am mistaken, the BV cost of a Targeting Computer is based on the cost of the weapons on the mech.

No, you are right. Sorry, I was just pulling up the first piece of clan superiority tech that came to mind and obviously brain farted by picking the one thing that isn't. My bad. I guess the same example could apply to double heat sinks though. Clans can get more advantage from them because all their weapons are lighter, making the heat sinks that much more useful since you can pile on the weapons. Targeting computer was a dumb example as it is the rare system that actually does take combination into account for BV. Dude I feel dumb.

i refereed a game between IS and clan where the IS used a strategy of 2 cheap ass assault mechs (hatamoti's with long range weapons) who engaged the clan mechs at long range and got smashed. but the other IS mechs were heaps of fast medium and heavies who got close enough to negate the superior gunnery skills of the clanners.
The clanners kicked ass, but the IS mechs outnumbered them 2 to 1. and that meant the IS had lots more internal structure and their (gakky) guns lasted longer. It doesnt take long to get through a black hawk, but 2 IS mechs for the same points can last.
Yeenoghu is right with the internal structure and engine slots. A lot of clan mechs are glass cannons.

This debate I think has raged on since the Clans were introduced. But it's such a great debate, I love talking about it. So here goes:

The Clans have advantages over the IS in the early and lower levels of the Tech trees. They always will.

Lighter, More Powerful, less heat generating weapons (better heat sinks actually, the Clan weapons do produce more heat generally but the better heat sinks dissipate it more efficiently) vs heavier, less powerful, more heat generating IS versions...I mean it's clear that at 3025 L1 equipment you're going to get hosed unless you're using superior numbers or some really good hit & run tactics.

Now it's been awhile since I've played the table version of the game, but most of the advise given so far is right, get in close to them and dance around the Clan 'mechs. And yes saturating one Clan 'mech till he's down is the best way to do it. But like previously stated, if the Clan player breaks from Zelbrigen and begins to focus fire on one of your 'mech's at a time, it's going to be a quick game.

My best advise is when you see his 'mech line up and what kind of terrain you're in, pick the 'mech you think is going to give you the most headache and target him first, take him out. As well, using a mix of 'mechs with IS tech and make them very good at certain roles, make your selections synergize.

I can't remember the exact level of tech for IS or Clan at the moment. But if you can fit a light/fast IS 'mech with a NARC (which I think IS has, can't remember) and send him in close to mark the Clan 'mechs and let your fire support stay hidden behind cover and just volleying missiles while you have medium to heavy mechs coming in behind the light scout NARC taggers and keep up distractions.

Now this does mean you need terrain to block LOS and keep you in cover, which should be your main objective and trying to keep your 'mechs hidden in the "trap" so-to speak and spring it at the very last second.

When you're out gunned and out classed, you have to rely on tactics more then your gear. You're not going to out shoot a Clan 'mech in an IS 'mech with IS tech. Until you move up in the era's and get access to the better IS tech later on.

Open terrain will almost always be a win for the Clan's. It sucks, but at the lower tech level's and early era's you're going to be out ranged, out damaged and out maneuvered until you get in close range and stay at close range.

Like ChaoesGalvatron said, Clan 'mechs can be Glass Cannons, however if you can't touch that glass cannon it doesn't matter how fragile he really is.

(If I've missed something, overlooked something, or placed the wrong tech with IS or Clan feel free to correct me.)