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Dakka Preds. Alot of SM players love them. 85 points for AV13, AC and 2 HB's. If you're an economist this sounds like a really good deal.

But are they?

For a dakka pred, you use up a Heavy Support slot. Wouldn't you have better, heavier stuff you need to field for Heavy Support?

IMHO, Heavy Support is a place where you take units that can pour massive amounts of firepower, with their survival only secondary, to remove threats that will be a problem to your army.

Its just that I don't think SM armies have any trouble with infantry that can me remedied by getting a Dakka pred. We have landspeeders, razorbacks and dreads for that.

Am I missing something here?

Autocannon is pretty good against light vehicles and infantry.
Heavy bolters are good against infantry.
It is good against infantry.
It is also cheap.
I take it when i only have a few pointsleft and i can't take the vindicator although thw Whirlwind always looks nice i don't like to take it.

purplefood wrote:Autocannon is pretty good against light vehicles and infantry.
Heavy bolters are good against infantry.
It is good against infantry.
It is also cheap.
I take it when i only have a few pointsleft and i can't take the vindicator although thw Whirlwind always looks nice i don't like to take it.

I see so you take it when you have spare points. But personally I fill all of my Heavy support slots =)

I ould prefer Vindicator x 3
but if i only have a few points left then i'll take a dakka pred hell i'll take a 60 point pred for the autocannon.

Part of what makes the SM codex good is the ability to take multiple different units to fulfill the same role. You can load up on anti tank firepower with your Elites/Troops/FA and use Dakka Preds to fill out your anti infantry firepower, or do things the other way around, either way you can still get an effective list. Because they are so cheap they are very easy to fit in to lists like this if you think you need a bit more anti infantry firepower.

Having said that I do think the Dakka Predator has fallen out of favour a little, it has duality but isn't particularly strong at any particular role. Devastator types units are far more popular of late as they can take on both infantry and vehicles, and with Missiles they do both pretty well. It is also generally outclassed by the AutoLas Predator, its more focused (pure light vehicle hunting, the Autocannon and Heavy Bolters can do anti infantry but the Autocannon is somewhat wasted shooting light infantry) and only slightly more expensive.

I take them(sometimes) because they have almost as much killing power as a land raider crusader at around 1/3 the points.

Now that Said the LRC has more killing potential, Better Armor Protection, and a vast transport capacity; but again is nearly 3 times the cost.

Which one i take depends on several factors; not the least of which is the points size of the game.

I like lots of troops and need to fit 2-3 Dreads in with my heavy Support Choices(although some of those dreads may be my HS choices; Go MotF); after purchacing my 3-4 Full Tac Squads, My HQ or 2, and at least 2 dreads(Armor saturation is a must if you plan to keep any of them alive past turn 2) then, if i have the points left i will get one of the 2(Dakka pred or LRC).

Kommissar Kel wrote:I take them(sometimes) because they have almost as much killing power as a land raider crusader at around 1/3 the points.

Now that Said the LRC has more killing potential, Better Armor Protection, and a vast transport capacity; but again is nearly 3 times the cost.

Which one i take depends on several factors; not the least of which is the points size of the game.

I like lots of troops and need to fit 2-3 Dreads in with my heavy Support Choices(although some of those dreads may be my HS choices; Go MotF); after purchacing my 3-4 Full Tac Squads, My HQ or 2, and at least 2 dreads(Armor saturation is a must if you plan to keep any of them alive past turn 2) then, if i have the points left i will get one of the 2(Dakka pred or LRC).

So again, you take them only for spare points. I think I'm seeing the angle now.

The dakka pred is one of those units that doesn't look all that good on paper, but as long as you don't expect unreasonable things out of it it preforms pretty well.

For 85 points you get a light vehicle and infantry suppression vehicle that takes a fair amount of return fire to silence. Take 3 of them + some 2 autocannon dreds and you have a scary amount of mid strength fire power to stun/destroy an opposing mech player. Since SM can get pretty much any type of role out of each slot, using your heavy support and/or elite slots on this type of thing isn't a huge deal.

The dakka pred in particular isn't a tank that is taken for its amazing killing power or for its amazing survival ability (though it is pretty hardy as long as you don't expose its sides) It is taken because it is cheap, can fill multiple roles, and does a fair job protecting lighter units with its armor 13 (park a razorback or rhino behind it for cover)

Also, the heavy support in SM aren't exactly the greatest (unless you are playing with SWs) Devs can get pricey fast unless you just go for missile launchers, whirlwinds and thunderfires are very much specialized and are rather fragile, land raiders cost a bunch and can be taken as dedicated transports by anything that really can make good use out of it. Lastly vindicators are one of those units that seems to work best as at 2-3, because if you just take one it is going to be taken out before you get to fire it many times. Since they are pricey and have narrow play style, they don't fit in every list.

One of the things dakka preds have going for it is the insane amount of Las/Plas razor spam. That autocannon and heavy boltsers has a decent chance of ruining or crippling a razorback first turn. At that point, You've already made your points back.

Veldrain wrote:One of the things dakka preds have going for it is the insane amount of Las/Plas razor spam. That autocannon and heavy boltsers has a decent chance of ruining or crippling a razorback first turn. At that point, You've already made your points back.

An AC/LC Pred does the same.

Chaos likes its preds....

The dakka predator works well with long range SM lists since they can put a lot of anti-tank into every other slot for cheap and heavy supports anti-tank is heavily over costed or inefficient so you might as well take some cheap and very good anti-infantry.

They work pretty well well with the rest of my army because I use las/plas razors, rifleman dreads and land speeder typhoons which all have low to mid front armor but are much higher priority targets to I can use the dakka preds relatively high front armor to screen my lower armor units so my opponent has to choose between shooting the cheap tank that he doesn't care about with AV13 or go for the ones he does that have 4+ or sometimes even 3+ cover saves. Either way more often than not their going to have to dump ALOT of firepower to kill either on average.

Dakka preds are very solid for their points too because they threaten MC's/transports/hoards/elite infantry all for a very reasonable price so its very good to take them in a balanced all comers list like for a tournament when you don't know what you will be facing.

A mix of Quality and Quanitity at a relatively affordable cost. You can't go wrong with taking them.

Their only fault is being competition for the other heavy support units.

Sanctjud wrote:A mix of Quality and Quanitity at a relatively affordable cost. You can't go wrong with taking them.

Their only fault is being competition for the other heavy support units.

Or the fact that the Chaos version is 15 points more expensive for no good reason...
Then not taking it becomes a matter of principle.

I don't take the Chaos Dakka Pred because of the whole 'Spiky SMurf' issue.

But, when I said relative, I prob. should have put in 'relative to their own codicies'.

They're useful for smaller games or where there aren't many points left. If you're playing against Orks, 'nids or IG, having a lot of anti-infantry firepower is good (the autocannon can also try and tackle some of the vehicles/ MCs these armies often use.

I like them but on paper only. I just find I have enough anti infantry in the rest of my force to get through, and as mentioned it competes with other HS choices. Admittedly none of my friends run a horde list, but one of them is building one soon so I might change my mind in the nearish future. Until then the real deal killer for me is other HS choices.

I look at it this way: For an additional 35 points, You upgrade your Dakka Pred into an Autolas pred - way better in my book.

I'm not one of the "extra points" crowd. I take three dakka preds in my mech marine lists by preference. For a fully mechanized list, they're the best choice available IMHO.

Cost is the primary strength. I can fill all my HS slots for 255 points (the cost of only one crusader). That means I can easily take 3 of them in even very small armies--1K points or 1500.

Three of them firing together can threaten almost anything except heavy armor. They wipe out units of AR10 skimmers. They can finish monstrous creatures on their own. Throw all their shots into a unit of heavy infantry in cover, and the unit will be crippled (unless it's long fangs, who will likely get wiped out). 255 points worth of Autolas preds can't do that.

If I want lascannons, I put em on razorbacks. If I want missiles, I take typhoons. Those choices are more cost-efficient for those weapons than other HS choices. Vindicators and TFCs are one-shot weapons. Dreads and dakka predators are the most points-efficient choices available in the space marine heavy slots.

Flavius Infernus wrote:I'm not one of the "extra points" crowd. I take three dakka preds in my mech marine lists by preference. For a fully mechanized list, they're the best choice available IMHO.

Cost is the primary strength. I can fill all my HS slots for 255 points (the cost of only one crusader). That means I can easily take 3 of them in even very small armies--1K points or 1500.

Three of them firing together can threaten almost anything except heavy armor. They wipe out units of AR10 skimmers. They can finish monstrous creatures on their own. Throw all their shots into a unit of heavy infantry in cover, and the unit will be crippled (unless it's long fangs, who will likely get wiped out). 255 points worth of Autolas preds can't do that.

If I want lascannons, I put em on razorbacks. If I want missiles, I take typhoons. Those choices are more cost-efficient for those weapons than other HS choices. Vindicators and TFCs are one-shot weapons. Dreads and dakka predators are the most points-efficient choices available in the space marine heavy slots.

I, on the other hand, get my "dakka" from HB Speeders. Missiles from Typhoons, Lascannons from my Preds. I dont take Razorbacks for my tacs maybe that's why I highly value the Autolas preds.

Yuber wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:I'm not one of the "extra points" crowd. I take three dakka preds in my mech marine lists by preference. For a fully mechanized list, they're the best choice available IMHO.

Cost is the primary strength. I can fill all my HS slots for 255 points (the cost of only one crusader). That means I can easily take 3 of them in even very small armies--1K points or 1500.

Three of them firing together can threaten almost anything except heavy armor. They wipe out units of AR10 skimmers. They can finish monstrous creatures on their own. Throw all their shots into a unit of heavy infantry in cover, and the unit will be crippled (unless it's long fangs, who will likely get wiped out). 255 points worth of Autolas preds can't do that.

If I want lascannons, I put em on razorbacks. If I want missiles, I take typhoons. Those choices are more cost-efficient for those weapons than other HS choices. Vindicators and TFCs are one-shot weapons. Dreads and dakka predators are the most points-efficient choices available in the space marine heavy slots.

I, on the other hand, get my "dakka" from HB Speeders. Missiles from Typhoons, Lascannons from my Preds. I dont take Razorbacks for my tacs maybe that's why I highly value the Autolas preds.

Yeah, probably same weapons but arranged differently. But can you get as much overall firepower?

At 1500 I can get
3 razors with las/plasma
3 basic dreads
2 MM speeders and 2 typhoons
3 dakka preds

That gives me, for vehicle-mounted weapons
3 lascannons
3 twin-linked plasma guns
5 multimeltas
2 typhoon launchers (2 shots each)
8 heavy bolters
3 autocannons

4 AR10 vehicles
3 AR11 vehicles
3 AR12 vehicles
3 AR13 vehicles (that unlike vindicators are able to spend the entire game with the AR13 facing toward the enemy)

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Yuber wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:I'm not one of the "extra points" crowd. I take three dakka preds in my mech marine lists by preference. For a fully mechanized list, they're the best choice available IMHO.

Cost is the primary strength. I can fill all my HS slots for 255 points (the cost of only one crusader). That means I can easily take 3 of them in even very small armies--1K points or 1500.

Three of them firing together can threaten almost anything except heavy armor. They wipe out units of AR10 skimmers. They can finish monstrous creatures on their own. Throw all their shots into a unit of heavy infantry in cover, and the unit will be crippled (unless it's long fangs, who will likely get wiped out). 255 points worth of Autolas preds can't do that.

If I want lascannons, I put em on razorbacks. If I want missiles, I take typhoons. Those choices are more cost-efficient for those weapons than other HS choices. Vindicators and TFCs are one-shot weapons. Dreads and dakka predators are the most points-efficient choices available in the space marine heavy slots.

I, on the other hand, get my "dakka" from HB Speeders. Missiles from Typhoons, Lascannons from my Preds. I dont take Razorbacks for my tacs maybe that's why I highly value the Autolas preds.

Yeah, probably same weapons but arranged differently. But can you get as much overall firepower?

At 1500 I can get
3 razors with las/plasma
3 basic dreads
2 MM speeders and 2 typhoons
3 dakka preds

That gives me, for vehicle-mounted weapons
3 lascannons
3 twin-linked plasma guns
5 multimeltas
2 typhoon launchers (2 shots each)
8 heavy bolters
3 autocannons

4 AR10 vehicles
3 AR11 vehicles
3 AR12 vehicles
3 AR13 vehicles (that unlike vindicators are able to spend the entire game with the AR13 facing toward the enemy)

I get these at 1500:

2 10-Man tacs with Multimelta
2 Mortis Dreads
2 Land Speeder Typhoons
3 HB Speeder Squadron
3 AutoLas Pred

It gives me:

6 Las Cannons
2 Multimeltas
2 Typhoon Launchers
8 Heavy Bolters
7 Autocannons, 4 of which are twin linked.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Three of them firing together can threaten almost anything except heavy armor. They wipe out units of AR10 skimmers. They can finish monstrous creatures on their own. Throw all their shots into a unit of heavy infantry in cover, and the unit will be crippled (unless it's long fangs, who will likely get wiped out). 255 points worth of Autolas preds can't do that.

Against marines (T4 Sv3) in 4+ cover, 3 Dakka preds kill an average of 3.78 while 3 autolas preds kill 2.79. It's better at that, but it's not likely to wipe out a long fang squad, and it's certainly not enough to cripple a 10-man marine squad. Against MCs the stats vary, against a T6 3+ save MC they have the exact same average wounds (4.23), if you up the toughness then the autolas gets better fast. Dakka preds are nice, but you're exaggerating their effect on heavy infantry.

Yeah, that looks pretty close, slightly different emphasis. I get one extra hull and more mobile multimeltas, you get more lascannons and autocannons.

I think dakka preds have a place as a cheap HS.

That said, my heavies are usually filled with 2 vindicators and a TFC.

I agree that HS should be filled with things that can hit hard. Survival is second. I think survival is second for me is because I use the vindis to draw fire away from my LRR and rhinos.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Yeah, that looks pretty close, slightly different emphasis. I get one extra hull and more mobile multimeltas, you get more lascannons and autocannons.

I just don't like the idea of suicide squads. I stay away from HF/MM Speeder variants.