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Upcoming GT, trying something different here. The event is pretty heavily comped, so using multiples of units reduces score, using net lists reduces score, using giant deathstars, abusing certain units or things like this all reduce comp (score is from 0-100 I think, with averages being 60).

Anyways, im not going to take jetseer council since it hasnt worked out for me in the past and itll get comp slapped. I have a few ideas here, with the idea being not using min sized units (comp reasons and duality reasons) and trying to avoid any kind of deathstar, while still being able to have duality in my units (ie, they can shoot and can withstand combat, not necesarilly win, but can atleast last several rounds).

Still going to use special characters, which will hurt comp, but I think they add enough to the list its worth the reductions in score. Eldrad brings lots to the table, double fortune, double doom, double guide, etc etc. Also being able to mind war things when needed helps. Not to mention deployment repositioning if things dont look good off the start. Yriel brings reserve bonuses to avoid being alpha struck and he also adds a nice trump card. He can decimate a squad on his own and adds lots of CC prowress. Ill have to keep an eye on him so he doesnt get insta punched, which probably means keeping eldrad and yriel together, although I really dont want to do this since its putting to many eggs in one basket again. Im going to playtest them seperate and see how it goes.

EDIT: HERES 2 UPDATES LISTS


HQ Pts
Eldrad 210
Yriel 155

Elites
Fire Dragons 5 80
Wave Serpent Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones 110
Fire Dragons 5 80
Wave Serpent Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones 110

Troops
Dire Avengers 10 Exarch, Power Weapon & Shimmershield, Bladestorm 162
Wave Serpent Bright Lance, Shuriken Cannon 145
Dire Avengers 9 Exarch, Power Weapon & Shimmershield, Bladestorm 150
Wave Serpent Bright Lance, Shuriken Cannon 145
Storm Guardians 10 2 x Flamer, Warlock, Destructor 127
Wave Serpent Bright Lance, Shuriken Cannon 145

Heavy Support
Fire Prism 115
Fire Prism 115

Total
1849


So in this list yriel and eldrad go with DA, its kinda death starry. The troop loadout is really different from typical netlisters, but like I said, im trying get duality out of my units and trying to spare my comp rating.

The idea here is to have usefull troops. Im not sure how this will pan out, since I will be playtesting it, but Im hoping having some usefull troops will make the army much more balanced and allow me to have threats in each tank, instead of one tank.

Second option, since my first list got tanked in comp score (pre list submission):

HQ Pts
Eldrad 210

Elites
Fire Dragons 5 80
Wave Serpent Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones 110
Fire Dragons 5 80
Wave Serpent Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones 110

Troops
Dire Avengers 9 Exarch, Power Weapon & Shimmershield, Bladestorm 150
Wave Serpent Bright Lance, Shuriken Cannon 145
Guardians 10 Shuriken Cannon 85
Wave Serpent Bright Lance, Shuriken Cannon 145
Storm Guardians 10 2 x Flamer, Warlock, Destructor 127
Wave Serpent Bright Lance, Shuriken Cannon 145
Dire Avengers 5 60

Heavy Support
Falcon EML, Holo-Fields 170
Fire Prism 115
Fire Prism 115

Total
1847

Alright, so the judges comments were to drop the SC's, so the easy one to get rid of was yriel, since in playtesting he didnt do much. Eldrad on the other hand is a champ and really just offers so much to the list. I could drop him to a regular seer......but I dunno what id use his saved points on. spirit stones maybe? but not sure thats worth it. Im trying to run without spriit stones (in the past ive ALWAYS used them). so far it hasnt bit me in the ass.


I wont know the comp score on the second list, since pre submission is over, but my first list scored 35/120 in comp rating (which is god awful). Basically the redundancy and the 2 SCs nerfed my score hard. I was told my score would go up 40-50 points just by dropping both SCs. So I figure it should go up half that by dropping atleast one, not to mention dropping all redundancy in my troop section. Im guessing the second list hits more around 60/120 in comp (honestly, it should be way higher.......its flipping eldar, and theres no seer council, it should be scoring 90/120).

Well, the idea to let the precious HQ join the Scorpions is interesting.
However, a Council would be the better choice in terms of survivability.
I'd keep the Avengers out of cc at all costs. Your plans seem to be different. I'd give them bladestorm and nothing else.

Eldrad will need to go with the DAs to make sure you're at least fortuning his unit. I would give his squad Shimmer/Defend (and bladestorm perhaps) and just give the other squad dualcats/bladestorm. 5+ invuln in CC isn't really all that great unless you get re-rolls and defend. Trust me.

Otherwise, Wuest is right... don't get them into combat unless you give them the tools they need to survive. Yriel and Scorpions (I ran this combo before I went super shooty) is pretty awesome. Yriel can split off for Eye of Wrath as needed, but he adds some good Initiative PW attacks to thin the enemy before your claw strikes. Also, both the claw and spear and take down armor.

However... they are hard to position in a serpent. You have to have your timing / distances JUST right or you'll get shot to hell while you're trying to get them into position where they don't get assaulted/shot. If you drop them out and get them near eldrad, he can help keep Yriel and boys alive with another fortune.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Essentially I recommend the above, but tactically, to make the scorpions work, run them and Yriel next to the Eldrad DA serpent, and when they go to work, the scorpions are close enough to strike the hammer on the fortune/shimmer anvil.

It becomes a really sick target for a Manticore or something, so be ready for disappointment if you get pie plated or ML sniped.

I would recommend sticking with only Eldrad. Yriel puts you into some serious point sink instead of taking more targets.

I took yriel with scorpions in a couple games, I wasn't that impressed - it's just hard to get an assault unit out of a wave serpent into assault without being shot up, especially without fleet. I would take the scorpions out for another fire dragons unit.

Also, shuriken cannons and brightlances are currently out of favour with me, I prefer EML and scatter lasers. The range of scatter lasers is a huge difference, and the price difference between EML/brightlance is huge.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, the idea to let the precious HQ join the Scorpions is interesting.
However, a Council would be the better choice in terms of survivability.
I'd keep the Avengers out of cc at all costs. Your plans seem to be different. I'd give them bladestorm and nothing else.

avoiding council for comp reasons. i dont plan on sticking DA in combat. but when they get out, or there serpent gets esploded, combat seems to find them. It be nice to be able to survive combat lol

Zain60 wrote:Eldrad will need to go with the DAs to make sure you're at least fortuning his unit. I would give his squad Shimmer/Defend (and bladestorm perhaps) and just give the other squad dualcats/bladestorm. 5+ invuln in CC isn't really all that great unless you get re-rolls and defend. Trust me.

Otherwise, Wuest is right... don't get them into combat unless you give them the tools they need to survive. Yriel and Scorpions (I ran this combo before I went super shooty) is pretty awesome. Yriel can split off for Eye of Wrath as needed, but he adds some good Initiative PW attacks to thin the enemy before your claw strikes. Also, both the claw and spear and take down armor.

However... they are hard to position in a serpent. You have to have your timing / distances JUST right or you'll get shot to hell while you're trying to get them into position where they don't get assaulted/shot. If you drop them out and get them near eldrad, he can help keep Yriel and boys alive with another fortune.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Essentially I recommend the above, but tactically, to make the scorpions work, run them and Yriel next to the Eldrad DA serpent, and when they go to work, the scorpions are close enough to strike the hammer on the fortune/shimmer anvil.

It becomes a really sick target for a Manticore or something, so be ready for disappointment if you get pie plated or ML sniped.

I would recommend sticking with only Eldrad. Yriel puts you into some serious point sink instead of taking more targets.

Assaulting from a serpent is very hard, your right. Ive tried it before, it takes some work for it to happen. Yriel really isnt that many points, and Im not sure what he could be replaced with, the reserve bonus is quite nice. And a regular autarch simply does not offer what he does, and are very similar in points. Id drop eldrad to a regular seer before yriel to a regular autarch. Interesting thought on running eldrad with DA and yriel with scorpions, I do worry about yriel not having fortune to save his ass lol.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:I took yriel with scorpions in a couple games, I wasn't that impressed - it's just hard to get an assault unit out of a wave serpent into assault without being shot up, especially without fleet. I would take the scorpions out for another fire dragons unit.

Also, shuriken cannons and brightlances are currently out of favour with me, I prefer EML and scatter lasers. The range of scatter lasers is a huge difference, and the price difference between EML/brightlance is huge.

I could run another dragon unit, just end up with no where to put yriel without sacrificing troops. that was all I was thinking there. And ive run 2x5 dragons before, and its hit and miss. dragons are very suicide, and often do nothing but die. And if your facing MSU/razerspam/chimer spam dragons are pointless.

Ive tried EMLs....yes there is big difference between EML and BL points, but not being able to touch a LR at range is killer. Last GT I played, 3/4 games had AV14 which I really would have liked to been able to hurt at range without sacrificing my dragons to them.

Mafty wrote:Assaulting from a serpent is very hard, your right. Ive tried it before, it takes some work for it to happen. Yriel really isnt that many points, and Im not sure what he could be replaced with, the reserve bonus is quite nice. And a regular autarch simply does not offer what he does, and are very similar in points. Id drop eldrad to a regular seer before yriel to a regular autarch. Interesting thought on running eldrad with DA and yriel with scorpions, I do worry about yriel not having fortune to save his ass lol.

Yea, I wasn't suggesting he was too many points, just that adding him on top of Eldrad means you are taking an expensive HQ who has instant benefit and then adding another special character instead of taking some other vehicle or squad. Some alternatives for 155 points could be another wave serpent, falcon, war-walker squadron, even pathfinders to soak backfield fire ..etc etc. Things that give you another target rather than sinking points into a 'single' target until he drops out.

Yriel is superlative for his point cost, and other than using a bike or WJG, he's better than any build you can take on foot for an Autarch. If you are dead set on him, I, too, would be ready to sacrifice Eldrad instead of Yriel if it's dropping down to a non-special character. There is no comparison between Yriel and a normal Autarch for his cost. Eldrad can be compared to 1.5ish Farseers though. So if you feel the 0.5 is a waste, dropping him to a Guide, Doom, or Fortuneseer depending on the list can streamline it.

Zain~

A better upgrade for the Dire Avengers in your case than Shimmer Shield + Power Weapon is the Dire Sword.

Since you aren't paying for defend, and plan on using fortune on the scorpions, you really won't see much benefit out of a 5+ invulnerable. The Dire Sword costs 5 fewer points, gives your Exarch an additional power weapon attack thanks to the pistol which also lets him take 1(2) shots at 12 inches, and has the (albeit rare) chance of IDing a character. Generally though I'd still recomend taking 2 catapults, as the extra 4(5) shots is more than worth any cc benefit you can get from a single s3 power weapon.

I'm not really feeling the scorpions either. When I play mech dar I often bring a unit of banshees even though its not the most competitve. I do so because its nice having something that can deal with other enemies fast assault troops that can threaten my serpents, and they can engage targets that my Dire Avengers or Storm Guardians can't easily kill- like Terminators or FnP spam. I generally put them in a shooty serpent near my other ones, and (before moving the serpent) disembark + 6inches + fleet helps to get into cloes combat. Otherwise they are in a shooty wave serpent (eml + underslung cannon) which doesn't mind shooting away.

Your list however, is placing 2 very expensive HQs into your scorpion squad, If my banshees don't get a charge off I've wasted 192 points, if your scorpions don't get a charge off, you're wasting 488 points. Not only that, but because neither Eldrad nor the scorpions have fleet, its even more difficult to get a charge off from a wave serpent that hasn't moved.

I would replace Eldrad with a cheap fortune seer with runes of Warding and replace the scorpions with as many warlocks as I can buy. Because Yriel has fleet, basic farseers have fleet, and the Council has fleet, they'll have an easier time getting a charge off from a wave serpent, as well as being more durable to boot. Your comp score will be fine, don't worry about it. Its not like you're spamming MSU razors + max longfangs.

akaean wrote:A better upgrade for the Dire Avengers in your case than Shimmer Shield + Power Weapon is the Dire Sword.

Since you aren't paying for defend, and plan on using fortune on the scorpions, you really won't see much benefit out of a 5+ invulnerable. The Dire Sword costs 5 fewer points, gives your Exarch an additional power weapon attack thanks to the pistol which also lets him take 1(2) shots at 12 inches, and has the (albeit rare) chance of IDing a character. Generally though I'd still recomend taking 2 catapults, as the extra 4(5) shots is more than worth any cc benefit you can get from a single s3 power weapon.

I'm not really feeling the scorpions either. When I play mech dar I often bring a unit of banshees even though its not the most competitve. I do so because its nice having something that can deal with other enemies fast assault troops that can threaten my serpents, and they can engage targets that my Dire Avengers or Storm Guardians can't easily kill- like Terminators or FnP spam. I generally put them in a shooty serpent near my other ones, and (before moving the serpent) disembark + 6inches + fleet helps to get into cloes combat. Otherwise they are in a shooty wave serpent (eml + underslung cannon) which doesn't mind shooting away.

Your list however, is placing 2 very expensive HQs into your scorpion squad, If my banshees don't get a charge off I've wasted 192 points, if your scorpions don't get a charge off, you're wasting 488 points. Not only that, but because neither Eldrad nor the scorpions have fleet, its even more difficult to get a charge off from a wave serpent that hasn't moved.

I would replace Eldrad with a cheap fortune seer with runes of Warding and replace the scorpions with as many warlocks as I can buy. Because Yriel has fleet, basic farseers have fleet, and the Council has fleet, they'll have an easier time getting a charge off from a wave serpent, as well as being more durable to boot. Your comp score will be fine, don't worry about it. Its not like you're spamming MSU razors + max longfangs.

yea....I hear ya. So perhaps dropping eldrad down to fortune doom seer, dropping scorpions and adding something else. I could even do poor mans council with a unit of shimmershielding defend DA. gives me another troop choice and gives me a unit that has all invulvs in CC. plus DA have fleet so the unit would still have fleet.

Im warry on making a foot council, I dont want to make a foot version of something I have on jetbikes, since IMO jetbike version is better, and I dont want to run it.

I could of course put farseer + yriel in any unit really.....could be harlies, banshees, etc

Okay, I got my comp score back on the initial first list, which was 35/120, which is terrible. So ive included a second list with the comp scoring in mind (read the first post for more info).


Also in playtesting yriel didnt do anything but die, so im not scared of dumping him. Although id like to do a lot more playtesting on the list, I have to have it submitted by the 29th.

The second list is almost exactly what I would play. Maybe drop the power weapon, shimmer shields and defend from any exarch that has them in the DA squads. Maximize the 9 man DA squad.

I don't know the exact impact on your comp score, but running 10 DA exarch bladestorm dual cats and 10 DA exarch bladestorm without dual cats? it's a different unit now?

The guardian squad is good.

I think the BL's on your WS's are a bit overkill, on some of them you can drop it down to EML for versatility.

Also, if you drop your falcon and 5 man DA squad completely, I am sure you can squeeze in a Howling Banshee squad in a WS or maybe some War Walkers? Just a suggestion.

the second list only has 1 DA unit, not following what your really talking about phyrephly (plus the DAVU).

To many games ive needed BLs and not EMLs......so much av14 I need to kill at range, tripple BW orks, dual raider lists etc.

Mafty wrote:
Second option, since my first list got tanked in comp score (pre list submission):

HQ Pts
Eldrad 210

Elites
Fire Dragons 5 80
Wave Serpent Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones 110
Fire Dragons 5 80
Wave Serpent Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones 110

Troops
Dire Avengers 9 Exarch, Power Weapon & Shimmershield, Bladestorm 150
Wave Serpent Bright Lance, Shuriken Cannon 145
Guardians 10 Shuriken Cannon 85
Wave Serpent Bright Lance, Shuriken Cannon 145
Storm Guardians 10 2 x Flamer, Warlock, Destructor 127
Wave Serpent Bright Lance, Shuriken Cannon 145
Dire Avengers 5 60

Heavy Support
Falcon EML, Holo-Fields 170
Fire Prism 115
Fire Prism 115

Total
1847

I think there is a second squad of DA?

Whilst the building of a list is difficult with these comp scores, it should make for some interesting armies!

I dont know if this is a stupid question but what is a comp score and how do you calculate it? I never heard of it probably because its a competition thing.

Punisher91090 wrote:I dont know if this is a stupid question but what is a comp score and how do you calculate it? I never heard of it probably because its a competition thing.

its a composition score, its subjective scoring done by judges (usually). I dont know what my comp score would be for the second list, its based on the use of net lists, using special characters, using uber units, using duplicates of units in FOC (so I lose point for double dragons, double prisms, etc)

oh ok and that affects your overall placement in the tournament? If thats the case I would roll a seer council list with one group of each troop (ex. 10 DA's, 10 Guardians, 10 Rangers) then just boat loads of heavy support probably a squad of war walkers 1 prism and 1 falcon. Just minimize penalties to my comp score while dominating with my council thats supported by my heavies while my troops just cap objectives and stuff of that nature. So looking at your list I would keep eldrad so you can double guide and then doom a unit and smother that unit under combined fire. Good luck with the TL BL's on the serpents I have had 0 luck with those so far. Have fun at your tourney. Wish I could play in a tourney against other people from dakka... and that I could use my custom vehicles.

well just taking the council would nerf your score right away.

Its based partially on repetition. But if you take net deathstars (nob bikers, seer council, big TH/SS squads, TWC lords, etc) your comp automatically goes down.

I lost 50 points on comp just for taking eldrad and yriel. If i use a regular autarch and regular farseer i go from 35/120 to 85/120. thats huge, thats being able to lose a game and still end up in the same points bracket.

This tournament looks dumb imo. Cheesy lists are what makes the game fun.

As far as both ur lists.......they both good.

Heres what I'd do if I were you.

since repetition hurts your comp score, no sense taking fire prisms. Take a squad of Warp Spiders instead, no sense having more repetition than the dragons.

Get rid of Eldrad, he really isn't worth his points in a mechanized list (its not that hes bad, its just hes not worth the premium from a regular farseer in this type of list) The fact that he hurts your comp score doesn't exactly help his case either.

Replace him with a simple guide seer with Warding, and an wjg Autarch with some bells and whistles, that'll let you play some reserve games as well. Possibly hook the farseer up with Spirit Stones and Doom if you have the points.

I still don't agree with shimmer shield + Power Weapon. Definitely take a bladestorm exarch with 2 catapults.

Consider swapping your Defenders in a Wave Serpent out for 6 Gu bikes and a warlock. With an Embolden Lock with a singing spear, and 2 shuri cannons, they can still contribute anti tank, and you get twin linking.
Only costs about 205 points.

Comp sucks pretty hard in general but with Eldar only having a handful on useful units to work with in the first place it makes it impossible to build a decent list. 35/120 for a list with two Special Characters with no viable delivery system is crazy, I'm guessing a proper Foot Council (which is a sub par unit in general and far inferior to any Marine Deathstar unit) would be a instant 0 or something which is utterly stupid. I'm not sure how they expect to comp things like a full Thunderwolf Cav unit with Wolf Lord or a Razorspam list if they are giving you that kind of score (unless they can go into negatives). To be fair its hard to know how bad your score is without knowing how well other lists scored as well. I know in a recent tournament over here the average comp score was well below 50%, as most people brought hard lists even with comp.

Anyways, the first thing I would do would be to drop any and all Special Characters, they will instantly drop you comp scores quite a bit. Many people still have the old 3rd/4th mindset about special characters when they were very powerful, rare and required opponents permission to use. This is long gone but seems to still be a factor for many people. Eldrad in particular has a bad reputation due to 4th edition craziness (and generally being unkillable) and Marine players don't like seeing an entire squad being blown up in a single turn by Yriel. A fully mech Eldar list doesn't need Eldrad however, he should be hiding inside transports the entire game so you don't get any value from his T4 3++ and combat abilities (which are hard to make use of anyway due to no Fleet, non open topped transports and no one to hang out with). This means you are paying 210pts for 3 psychic powers per turn and the redeployment power (which is almost worthless against an experienced opponent or if you deploy second), a standard Farseer or even two is probably a better bet in any case as you get a bigger effective range due to multiple casting points. I would actually comp a list with Farseer + Autarch lower (stronger) than a list with Eldrad at this points level as imo that is a far more effective build, if they don't see things that way then lucky you.

Fortunately for Eldar there are a few units which don't get taken that much, so in turn they shouldn't hurt your comp score as much, but are still very effective units. Running multiple Falcons is viable (although you lose the Prisms to get them), most people seem to rate them below Serpents when they are just as good if not better. Vypers would definitely be a good idea, most people see AV10 opened topped and laugh, but the movement blocking and massed S6 shooting you can get from them is pretty good. As you are running Bright Lances everywhere atm you could do with the anti infantry firepower anyway.

For your troops you can mix it up with Flamer Guardians, big Avenger units and DAVU (all in Serpents or Falcons obviously) but thats about it, there isn't much to work with unfortunately. Jetbikes are too vulnerable with everything else in vehicles and Rangers and Defenders don't work in a mech list. The only other possible option would be the 10 man Storm Guardian unit with 2 x Fusion Guns + Warlock, its far inferior to the flamer version but does give you a bit of anti tank punch from a scoring unit.

One other option I have been considering is running small units of Harlequins with 2 Fusion Pistols as my melta units rather than Fire Dragons. As long as you have a few Bright Lances in your list then AV14 shouldn't be an issue (and with heavy comp I doubt you will see many double or triple Raider lists anyway), and for anything less than that 5-6 meltaguns in usually overkill. You can buy a 5 man DAVU unit a Serpent and then deploy them in a Falcon so the Harlies get a transport to use. Obviously you lose a couple of meltaguns and some range (not usually an issue with the transport) but gain some usable Assault units which can be used to disrupt and keep infantry away from your vehicles. The Harlies come out to be a bit more expensive (130ish vs 80-96 for the Dragons) but certainly an option worth considering in this case as it would remove the repetition from your list.

In any case I would build a list you enjoy playing and believe you can do well with without worrying too much about comp. Don't bend over backwards to build an army which fits into their flawed system, its your army, you know its beatable and if you enjoy playing with it and can win with it then imo its a viable list.

Smitty0305 wrote:This tournament looks dumb imo. Cheesy lists are what makes the game fun.

As far as both ur lists.......they both good.

In fact, comp. score sucks.
At the end, you'll face some armies that have lower comp. score but will wipe the floor most of the time.
Eldrad will downgrade your comp. score.
This was my experience from the German GT heat 1 in 2008.
There were about 5 Eldar players ranked between 1 to 7.
My army was the only one among them without Eldrad and I got some laud from other players.

its funny how everyone dings eldrad for not being usefull.....he basically won my last 2 games single handily. \

a single farseer wouldnt have been able to do what he did (IE: mind war a nob biker to death, than assault and kill more with 2+ power weapon) the unit was already widdled to only 3 members left, and he finished the job.

You could try this if you want to not bring special characters. In general, I will always bring either Yriel or Eldrad, but I wouldn't feel like I was playing a total give away list running the following. I figure Yriel = 10 Banshees, or nearly so.

148 1 Farseer w/ Fortune & Doom, Spiritstones & Runes of Warding & Singing Spear
160 10 10 Banshees
110 1 WaveSerpent w/ Spirit Stones & Shuriken Cannons
96 6 6 Fire Dragons
110 1 WaveSerpent w/ Spirit Stones & Shuriken Cannons

152 8 Rangers
110 10 Defender Guardians w/ Bright Lance
130 11 Storm Guardians 10 2 x Flamer, Warlock, Destructor & Singing Spear
135 1 Brightlance Serpent
120 10 Dire Avengers
135 1 Brightlance Serpent

155 1 Wraithlord w/ Brightlance and ELM
135 3 Shuriken Warwalkers (outflanking)
150 1 Fire Prism w/ Holofields

1846 65

Thoughts?

its funny how everyone dings eldrad for not being usefull.....he basically won my last 2 games single handily. \

I'm not saying that Eldrad is not being useful. But he will downgrade your comp. score.