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I was toying with some mechanised IG lists the other day and a thought occurred to me when considering loading a veteran squad with three plasma guns - If by falling foul of the 'gets hot' rule when firing from within a chimera and consequently suffering 25% or more casualties would the unit still be forced to take a morale test? And what if they failed?

The rules don't cover what happens in the situation you described. Some say the unit is destroyed since it can't disembark (trapped!), others think it will disembark and fall back as it's a special requirement.

RAW, nothing protects them from morale checks inside a transport, and they can only disembark in their own Movement Phase, and are therefore trapped.

Personally, I'd not explain it this way, I'd prefer the description "they were boiled alive by a rupturing plasma container".

Alright, thanks guys. Unless I'm missing something though it seems to me RAW states models can only voluntarily embark or disembark in the movement phase (page 66 - Embarking and disembarking). This being an involuntary and mandatory action following a failed morale test suggests to me they disembark and hoof it.

Tom Norman wrote:Alright, thanks guys. Unless I'm missing something though it seems to me RAW states models can only voluntarily embark or disembark in the movement phase (page 66 - Embarking and disembarking). This being an involuntary and mandatory action following a failed morale test suggests to me they disembark and hoof it.

Except that, like Mahtamori said, they may only disembark in their Movement phase, except in the single situation of an Emergency Disembarkation, which can only happen if the vehicle is Wrecked. So, ask yourself: are they taking the morale check in the Movement phase (and if it's from a Gets Hot! weapon, they couldn't be)? No? Then they have nowhere to fall back to, and are Trapped.

SaintHazard wrote:Except that, like Mahtamori said, they may only disembark in their Movement phase, except in the single situation of an Emergency Disembarkation, which can only happen if the vehicle is Wrecked. So, ask yourself: are they taking the morale check in the Movement phase (and if it's from a Gets Hot! weapon, they couldn't be)? No? Then they have nowhere to fall back to, and are Trapped.

I think you're missing my point, bud. They can only voluntarily disembark in the movement phase; that's what it says. There's nothing to say they cannot be forced to disembark involuntarily. If the point you're making is exactly that (i.e. if the rules don't specifically state something then it ain't so) how then can we consider the vehicle occupants to be 'trapped'? The Trapped! rules don't make mention of models being inside other models. If it's a purely physical issue and you consider the hull of the vehicle to be impassable, that can be resolved by simply opening the back door.

A unit is trapped if it is unable to perform its full fallback movement. If the unit's embarked on a vehicle, the unit can't perform the move. And because it can't perform the move, 'trapped' would kick in and destroy the unit.

A house rule permitting an embarked unit to disembark is being generous.

Tom Norman wrote:I think you're missing my point, bud. They can only voluntarily disembark in the movement phase; that's what it says. There's nothing to say they cannot be forced to disembark involuntarily. If the point you're making is exactly that (i.e. if the rules don't specifically state something then it ain't so) how then can we consider the vehicle occupants to be 'trapped'? The Trapped! rules don't make mention of models being inside other models. If it's a purely physical issue and you consider the hull of the vehicle to be impassable, that can be resolved by simply opening the back door.

Hey! I'm not yer bud, friend!

Er. Basically, I didn't miss your point. My point is that nothing gives them permission to do so. In a permissive ruleset, "they can because nothing says they can't" is not a valid argument. They don't have permission to disembark outside of the movement phase with the specific exception of emergency disembarkation from a wrecked transport. Furthermore, nothing can be "forced" to do anything unless it has permission to do so, e.g. Lash of Submission, which has specific permission to force a unit to move outside the movement phase. There is no permission to force disembarkation given, thus you may not disembark, or be forced to disembark, if you fail a morale check. Thus, the unit is Trapped, and therefore destroyed.

Sucks, but them's the rules.

SaintHazard wrote:

Tom Norman wrote:I think you're missing my point, bud. They can only voluntarily disembark in the movement phase; that's what it says. There's nothing to say they cannot be forced to disembark involuntarily. If the point you're making is exactly that (i.e. if the rules don't specifically state something then it ain't so) how then can we consider the vehicle occupants to be 'trapped'? The Trapped! rules don't make mention of models being inside other models. If it's a purely physical issue and you consider the hull of the vehicle to be impassable, that can be resolved by simply opening the back door.

Hey! I'm not yer bud, friend!

Er. Basically, I didn't miss your point. My point is that nothing gives them permission to do so. In a permissive ruleset, "they can because nothing says they can't" is not a valid argument. They don't have permission to disembark outside of the movement phase with the specific exception of emergency disembarkation from a wrecked transport. Furthermore, nothing can be "forced" to do anything unless it has permission to do so, e.g. Lash of Submission, which has specific permission to force a unit to move outside the movement phase. There is no permission to force disembarkation given, thus you may not disembark, or be forced to disembark, if you fail a morale check. Thus, the unit is Trapped, and therefore destroyed.

Sucks, but them's the rules.

Eh!? I'm not your friend, pal! </Canadian>

I would have to disagree and say that the unit isn't Trapped. The unit isn't ANYTHING, since you MUST make a house rule to deal with this situation, period.

Gwar! wrote:Eh!? I'm not your friend, pal! </Canadian>

I would have to disagree and say that the unit isn't Trapped. The unit isn't ANYTHING, since you MUST make a house rule to deal with this situation, period.

I'm not your pal, budday!

Actually, what's the definition of "Trapped?"

Page 45:
"If the unit cannot perform a full fall back move in any
direction without doubling back, it is destroyed"

Can the embarked unit perform a full fall back move in any direction without doubling back?

I think you'll find they fit the criteria, and are, therefore, "Trapped."

I would have to disagree and say that the unit isn't Trapped. The unit isn't ANYTHING, since you MUST make a house rule to deal with this situation, period.

This. There is nothing else you can do without it being a bit weird. Nothing says they can get out of the transport but falling back makes you do so. It can go either way and needs a house rule. I'd say it's fair that they run out of the vehicle and fall back, but that's just me.


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Alright, thanks guys. Unless I'm missing something though it seems to me RAW states models can only voluntarily embark or disembark in the movement phase (page 66 - Embarking and disembarking). This being an involuntary and mandatory action following a failed morale test suggests to me they disembark and hoof it.

I'd agree here. The key word is voluntary. When they fail a leadership test it isn't a voluntary action on the part of the controlling player.

SaintHazard wrote:I'm not your pal, budday!

Actually, what's the definition of "Trapped?"

Page 45:
"If the unit cannot perform a full fall back move in any
direction without doubling back, it is destroyed"

Can the embarked unit perform a full fall back move in any direction without doubling back?

I think you'll find they fit the criteria, and are, therefore, "Trapped."

I'm not your budday, mate!

But that is definitive enough for me. Thanks.

To necro I intended to post much earlier, went and did a reads. Unless somehow you can gain permission to disembark and move away from that vehicle in the shooting phase the unit is indeed 'Trapped!'. Even being able to move the vehicle itself wouldn't be adiquate iirc as the unit itself still wouldn't have performed the move~!

ChrisCP wrote:To necro I intended to post much earlier, went and did a reads. Unless somehow you can gain permission to disembark and move away from that vehicle in the shooting phase the unit is indeed 'Trapped!'. Even being able to move the vehicle itself wouldn't be adiquate iirc as the unit itself still wouldn't have performed the move~!

Not to mention the unit only counts as having moved, and has not actually performed the action of moving, but that's another can of worms for another thread.