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So I've had a few chances now to look at the codex, and have mine pre-ordered. How does this look:

HQ Lady Malys 130
Elite Hekatrix Bloodbridesx9 Syren, agonizer, 3x razorflails, raider, flickerfield 247
Elite Trueborn x4 4x blaster, venom 143
Elite Trueborn x4 4x blaster, venom 143
Troops Wyches x10 Hekatrix, agonizer, 2 hydra gauntlet, raider, flickerfield 220
Troops Wyches x10 Hekatrix, agonizer, 2 hydra gauntlet, raider, flickerfield 220
Troops Warriorsx10 shredder, splinter cannon, raider 165
Heavy Ravager Flickerfield 115
Heavy Ravager Flickerfield 115

1498

Lots of CC hitting power and still packs 10 lances + 8 blasters. Lady Malys gives me the option of some deployment shenanigans and is okay in combat. The Bloodbrides have razorflails for their +1A base. Main problem with the list is how fragile the transports are, but then again that's just DE for ya! I'm a little concerned that I only was able to fit 8 vehicles in @ 1500. Is that okay? Should I have more?

any comments? How good/bad is this?

Dracos wrote:So I've had a few chances now to look at the codex, and have mine pre-ordered. How does this look:

HQ Lady Malys 130
Elite Hekatrix Bloodbridesx9 Syren, agonizer, 3x razorflails, raider, flickerfield 247
Elite Trueborn x4 4x blaster, venom 143
Elite Trueborn x4 4x blaster, venom 143
Troops Wyches x10 Hekatrix, agonizer, 2 hydra gauntlet, raider, flickerfield 220
Troops Wyches x10 Hekatrix, agonizer, 2 hydra gauntlet, raider, flickerfield 220
Troops Warriorsx10 shredder, splinter cannon, raider 165
Heavy Ravager Flickerfield 115
Heavy Ravager Flickerfield 115

1498

Lots of CC hitting power and still packs 10 lances + 8 blasters. Lady Malys gives me the option of some deployment shenanigans and is okay in combat. The Bloodbrides have razorflails for their +1A base. Main problem with the list is how fragile the transports are, but then again that's just DE for ya! I'm a little concerned that I only was able to fit 8 vehicles in @ 1500. Is that okay? Should I have more?

Hi there, umm lady malys IMO is a poor choice she is too situational and repositioning maybe 3 units isn't impressive, better off with someone else. You need more warriors remember darklances are you bread and butter. True Born are a poor choice they just dont get things done I'd suggest mandrakes or squads of 5 incubi instead. as for bloodbrides I say try them. Now as for raider and flickerfield it is a matter of is it worth a 5++ for a cardboard box? I say have the army first then see about the flickerfield

why is nobody taking razorwing jetfighter or void raven bombers? loads better than a ravager

There are a number of reasons that people are discussing the Ravager. Firstly, it comes with more Dark Lances for significantly fewer points (40 fewer than the fighter and 80 fewer than the bomber). Also, most conjecture as the fighter and bomber being on the same "flight stand" as the Valk & Vend. This makes them both significantly more difficult to protect from enemy shooting by positioning and making it virtually impossible for the vehicle to get a cover save. Yes, the fighter and bomber can take a Flickerfield, but the field is only a 5+, rather than the 4+ available from cover.

Also, the fighter and the Ravager have different roles. The fighter, ironically, is almost totally anti-infantry in its weapon load outs. The Ravager is completely anti-tank. When we compare the Ravager to the Voidraven, the 'Raven does have better guns, but I believe it has inferior survivability since it is more difficult to hide.

Sure, the Voidraven can be seen by anyone... BUT that also means it can see everything!!!!

Nulipuli2 wrote:Sure, the Voidraven can be seen by anyone... BUT that also means it can see everything!!!!

This is true, however those units will (likely but not always) have a cover save, and you probably wont so that is the main issue. BUT I say give it a try! It's new, why not? I hear it is good against Tyranids

ShadowZetki wrote:
You need more warriors remember darklances are you bread and butter. True Born are a poor choice they just dont get things done I'd suggest mandrakes or squads of 5 incubi instead

I wouldn't argue against Incubi over the Bloodbrides, but Trueborn Warriors with Blasters are a much better option at anti-tank compared to Warriors; taking that Dark Lance means you can't shoot it on the move whereas a Venom drive-by means 4 Lance shots.

Hmm, I see the point you have here. The issue is your are paying for a cardboard box five men who are taking an elite choice which is heavily contested, and they need to be too close for comfort to actually use those blasters which does make for an issue. And how are they better than warriors when they are simple more costly with an extra attack? You can have more warriors which are and always have been the essential heart of your forces I'd rather have the killy range of a lance anyday. Also yes you can give a flickerfield but the issue is is that really worth it? A 5++ on a cardboard box we have? Our cost for things already went up which makes an issue to expand those costs is really risky, personally I say get the army before the field

ShadowZetki wrote:

Nulipuli2 wrote:Sure, the Voidraven can be seen by anyone... BUT that also means it can see everything!!!!

This is true, however those units will (likely but not always) have a cover save, and you probably wont so that is the main issue. BUT I say give it a try! It's new, why not? I hear it is good against Tyranids

I had 3 bombers which lasted the entire game (6 turns) becuase of flickerfields and nightshields. and becuase my oppenent only ever got 3 pentrating hits on them the entire game... lol.


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Fighters and Bombers are effective against nids.. espiacially with Necrotoxin Missles

That is definately good luck, and that is one unit where the flickerfield and nightshield are a must have. Still all things have good and bad moments so some days you will do great, some days not so much it's all good though

I like the Trueborn "Fire Dragon" squads and think they perform a wonderful roll in the new DE codex. But unlike proper fire dragons they don't have to get out of their vehicles to fire. Drive by for the win .

However I don't like Lady Malys as an HQ. Yeah she has some good advantages but the main one about psychic protection is hugely situational. And remember it won't stop her squad from being shot at from guided Dire Avengers...

As for the list. For a CC heavy list not taking Incubi is frankly Bizarre I'd swap them in for the bloodbrides and have them lead a serious CC HQ, Lelith would be my choice (or Vect, or both ).

Warriors in a Raider without splinter racks also seems a waste that is an anti-fantry squad so getting twin'linked on your main side arm for just 10 points is a no brainer. Their other equipement is fine though. I'd consider a nightfield as well on some of the vehicles though.

However my main issue is you've gone wych heavy but not taken any Cronos engines. They are manditory in any wych heavy list, without furious charge your wyches just will not hit hard enough. I'd take at least 2 in a list this Wych heavy, you're not desperate for the Ravagers dark lances due to the True born squads and if you upgrade their Venoms to Raiders you're packing 6 DLs from the transports alone and then 1 Ravager should be enough to support, leaving space for 2 Cronos engines. Another consideration would be to take some Haemonculi to lead the Wych squads, you lose a hydra gauntlet but gain a pain token, meaning that each Cronos should be able to give 2 squads furious charge before you home. In this tactic I'd leave the Wych squads in reserve but give them aethersails so that they turn up and support the Cronos engines just as they get into range.

You need to kill something with the Cronos first to put a Pain Token on the Wyces... and the Cronos is very slow compared to other units in the Dark Eldar Codex


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so the wyches will reach combat before the Cronos does lol

Many comments to be made here...

Your point costs on the trueborn unit are wrong - they are 163 for the setup you have.

Voidravens do not cost any more or any less than Razorwings (for whoever made that comment).

The 4 blaster squads are awesome - but this is not enough firepower at 1500; you have too many large squads and the raiders/ravagers will all be shot out of the sky by autocannons and missiles turn 1/2. You are much better off ditching the 10 man ubersquads for MSU spam, but some people don't like that.

Lastly - where did you plan on having Lady Malys actually sit? All your raiders are full but I guess you can have her ride with a trueborne unit...


TripleA

ShadowZetki wrote:That is definately good luck, and that is one unit where the flickerfield and nightshield are a must have. Still all things have good and bad moments so some days you will do great, some days not so much it's all good though

I agree with you on both acounts

Flickerfield and Nightshield are a Must HAVE for Bombers

You need to kill something with the Cronos first to put a Pain Token on the Wyces... and the Cronos is very slow compared to other units in the Dark Eldar Codex


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so the wyches will reach combat before the Cronos does

Which is why I told him to hold the Wyches in reserve...

Voidravens do not cost any more or any less than Razorwings (for whoever made that comment).

Yes they do once you pay for the missiles...

Lastly - where did you plan on having Lady Malys actually sit? All your raiders are full but I guess you can have her ride with a trueborne unit...

The bloodbrides only number 9, I imagine that is where she'll sit.

It wasnt really luck he had a lot of 36" inch range weapons that are good at taking out vehicles.. the problem was he could'nt reach me with them becuase of the Nighshields and becuase i moved 12" each turn so im always far away enough so i can shoot Him.. but so he cant shoot me.


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as for the higher range weapon the Flickerfield saved me a bit there

Ah correct on the bloods, I did the math wrong.

For those of you who love wyches...please don't take Lelith. It doesn't matter if you have 20 attacks, wounding on 5's and 6's is always fail.

Until Voidravens can fire at multiple targets, you have no reason to waste points on missiles for them. The razor is good because it does come equipped with missiles and with twin-linked splinter rifles. If you want lances and blasts, just take the fighter. If you want elite lances that aren't open topped, take the voidraven. If you want effecient anti tank, just take naked ravagers or ravagers with FF's. Nightshields do not cut it when everyone is running missiles and las/plas razor backs.

I started my list building at 2000 points, but I am going to go back and throw together a 1500 and 1750 point list, see what I can get in those brackets.

I'll say this: 3xRavager with 3xDL for 105 (315) points is the most ridiculous bargain ever.

TripleA

Edit: For clarification

TripleA wrote:"...Until Voidravens can fire at multiple targets, you have no reason to waste points on missiles for them..."

I believe their design is along the lines of eliminating tanks on their first round of shooting with their Lances, then focus on infantry in the next round of shooting with their Missiles...the vehicle seems better suited for Apoc Games but certainly has a home in the standard 40K setting.

Unfortunately, at least in my opinion, that is far too many eggs in one basket trying to fulfill multiple roles; especially for Dark Eldar. You can only assume that you will get one turn to fire your weapons; after that its just a lot of points in a really fast rhino.

Triple A

Not sure on razorflails on the elites... i think the gauntlets would be better but i've still to work out my spreadsheet to calculate it all.

Phototoxin wrote:Not sure on razorflails on the elites... i think the gauntlets would be better but i've still to work out my spreadsheet to calculate it all.

Wyches benefit from two sets of Hydra Gauntlets becasue they need more attacks to offset their low strength...Bloodbrides (as a whole) already have additional attacks so they benefit from Razorflails to re-roll those attacks and wounding rolls

Well you were right on the trueborn cost, and therefore in order to keep the core of the list Malys had to drop down to a succubus.

HQ Succubus Agonizer 85
Elite Hekatrix Bloodbridesx9 Syren, agonizer, 3x razorflails, raider, flickerfield, rams 252
Elite Trueborn x4 4x blaster, venom 163
Elite Trueborn x4 4x blaster, venom 163
Troops Wyches x10 Hekatrix, agonizer, 2 hydra gauntlet, raider, flickerfield 220
Troops Wyches x10 Hekatrix, agonizer, 2 hydra gauntlet, raider, flickerfield 220
Troops Warriorsx10 shredder, splinter cannon, raider 165
Heavy Ravager Flickerfield 115
Heavy Ravager Flickerfield 115

1498

The list already has 15 KP, so I don't feel like I can afford to start doing MSU. 15 KP at 1500 is a lot already. I'd take splinter racks for the warriors in a second, if I could only find the 10 points for them. Other than the rams (5 points), I can't find a place to take them that would be worthwhile. Thanks for the input, I'm going to start from here. GL to you guys with your lists.

Wyches benefit from two sets of Hydra Gauntlets becasue they need more attacks to offset their low strength...Bloodbrides (as a whole) already have additional attacks so they benefit from Razorflails to re-roll those attacks and wounding rolls

Against Ws4 and T4:

Charging Razorflail = 4 attacks = 3 hits = 1.67 wounds

Charging Hydra Gaunlets = 6.5 attacks (average) = 3.25 hits = 1.08 wounds

Razorflails have it. Lets try on the basic wyches:

Charging Razorflail = 3 attacks = 2.25 hits = 1.25 wounds

Charging Hydra Gaunlets = 5.5 attacks (average) = 2.75 hits = 0.9167 wounds

Swap out those Hydra gauntlets for razorflails alround!

See EDIT below: So it would actually seem that mixing the weapons is the better option !

Hekatrix and 7 Wyches = 25 attacks on the charge - hitting on 4s ( 12.5 ) - wounding on 5s ( 4.17 )
-- ( 2 with Razorflails ) = 6 attacks on the charge - hitting on 4s ( 3 with reroll 4 ) - wounding on 5s ( 1.33 with reroll 2.55 )

The Razorflail Wyches score = 6.72 wounds

12: Hekatrix and 9 Wyches ( 2 with Hydra Gauntlets ) = 41 attacks on the charge - hitting on 4s ( 20.5 ) - wounding on 5s ( 6.83 )
07: Hekatrix and 9 Wyches ( 2 with Hydra Gauntlets ) = 36 attacks on the charge - hitting on 4s ( 18 ) - wounding on 5s ( 6 )
02: Hekatrix and 9 Wyches ( 2 with Hydra Gauntlets ) = 31 attacks on the charge - hitting on 4s ( 15.5 ) - wounding on 5s ( 5.17 )

In the next round of close combat without suffering casualties:

Hekatrix and 7 Wyches = 17 attacks hitting on 4s ( 8.5 ) - wounding on 5s ( 2.83 )
-- ( 2 with Razorflails ) = 4 attacks hitting on 4s ( 2 with reroll 3 ) - wounding on 5s ( 1 with reroll 0.67 )

The Razorflail Wyches score = 3.5 wounds

12: Hekatrix and 9 Wyches ( 2 with Hydra Gauntlets ) = 31 attacks hitting on 4s ( 15.5 ) - wounding on 5s ( 5.17 )
07: Hekatrix and 9 Wyches ( 2 with Hydra Gauntlets ) = 26 attacks hitting on 4s ( 13 ) - wounding on 5s ( 4.33 )
02: Hekatrix and 9 Wyches ( 2 with Hydra Gauntlets ) = 21 attacks hitting on 4s ( 10.5 ) - wounding on 5s ( 3.5 )

In two rounds of close combat the RF Wyches will score ( combined ) = 10.22 wounds
In two rounds of close combat the HG Wyches will score ( combined ) = 10.33 wounds as average ( with 8.67 to 12 range potential )

Hydra Gauntlets have ( slightly ) better wounding results on average

EDIT: comparison of using one of each for curiosity...

Hekatrix and 7 Wyches on the charge = 25 attacks - hitting on 4s ( 12.5 ) - wounding on 5s ( 4.17 )
Razorflails on the charge = 3 attacks - hitting on 4s ( 1.5 with reroll 2.25 ) - wounding on 5s ( 0.75 with reroll 1.25 )
Hydra Gauntlets on the charge = 5.5 attacks - hitting on 4s ( 2.75 ) - wounding on 5s ( 0.917 )

Combined efforts on the charge score 6.337 wounds

In the next round of close combat without suffering casualties:

Hekatrix and 7 Wyches = 17 attacks - hitting on 4s ( 8.5 ) - wounding on 5s ( 2.83 )
Razorflails = 2 attacks - hitting on 4s ( 1 with reroll 1.5 ) - wounding on 5s ( 0.5 with reroll 0.83 )
Hydra Gauntlets = 4.5 attacks - hitting on 4s ( 2.25 ) - wounding on 5s ( 0.75 )

Combined efforts on the second round score 4.41 wounds

so after two rounds of close combat the unit with mixed RFs and HGs will score 10.747 wounds on average

So it would actually seem that mixing the weapons is the better option !

Toxic Wisdom the Hydra Gauntlets have no effect in the 2nd round of combat! They are +d6 attacks on the charge rather than plus 1.

In both cases the Hekatrix and 7 Wyches are identical so you can take them out of the equation the only difference is the razorflail vs hydra gauntlet.

Mixing will never be better than having all of 1 type because they have no impact on each other, all this illustrates is that your maths has gone wry elsewhere.

FlingitNow wrote:Toxic Wisdom the Hydra Gauntlets have no effect in the 2nd round of combat! They are +d6 attacks on the charge rather than plus 1.

Then I may have misread that part - will have to doublecheck...my reading of it was that the Hydra Gauntlets counted as a pair of Weapons but granted +d6 instead of the normal +1 for second ccw

edit: and we should take into account the combat drug options = the +1 WS for example will push Gauntlets ahead of Razorflails

Then I may have misread that part - will have to doublecheck...my reading of it was that the Hydra Gauntlets counted as a pair of Weapons but granted +d6 instead of the normal +1 for second ccw

I'm pretty sure it is charging but hey I could be mistaken I'll check myself, unless anyone else can confirm either way (obviously I don't have the codex to hand). However regardless looking at the maths for the mixed option you can see the razorflail out performs the Hydra gauntlet in each round of combat, regardless of whether the bonus continues so razorflails it is.

edit: and we should take into account the combat drug options = the +1 WS for example will push Gauntlets ahead of Razorflails

Where as the +1 attack would scew it more in favour of the razorflail. But yes it is not as cut and dried as first appears. But I'm edging far more towards the razorflail than I was at first where I was purely behind the hydra gauntlets before doing the maths...


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Here's your maths error:

-- ( 2 with Razorflails ) = 4 attacks hitting on 4s ( 2 with reroll 3 ) - wounding on 5s ( 1 with reroll 0.67 )

With re-roll it should be 1.67 wounds not 0.67, so yoou need to add 1 to the razorflails wounds totals and you will see that option come out on top. Now in all instances with an average of 11.22 wounds over the 2 rounds of combat.

FlingitNow wrote:"...Here's your maths error..."

and the reason forums and flexeril don't mix...

toxic_wisdom wrote:

FlingitNow wrote:Toxic Wisdom the Hydra Gauntlets have no effect in the 2nd round of combat! They are +d6 attacks on the charge rather than plus 1.

Then I may have misread that part - will have to doublecheck...my reading of it was that the Hydra Gauntlets counted as a pair of Weapons but granted +d6 instead of the normal +1 for second ccw

edit: and we should take into account the combat drug options = the +1 WS for example will push Gauntlets ahead of Razorflails

Hello.. from what is stated in the Codex. It was not mentioned that Hydra Gauntlets confer the +D6 bonus on the charge. Rather, The D6 is rolled at the beginning of each round of combat to determine the number of bonus attacks. This would mean that they always get the bonus, even if they did not charge..