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Okay so I'm rebuilding my Dark Eldar army and I was sure I had some Scourges put away in a box somewhere... yes I bought a bunch back when they first came out and I didn't realise how useless they would be... anywho I was looking at the new Codex and wondering if it was worth putting them back on the field.

Pros:
They'd make good long range MC hunters, having the speed and range to keep the faster (generally winged) MCs away
The increase to a 4+ Armour Save gives them a resistance against the most common weapon in 40K, the Boltgun, which most other Dark Eldar units can't save against
The 6+ Invulnerable Save gives them some protection against heavy weapons, something other weapons teams (like Devastators) lack
The increase to the range of Splinter Cannons help to keep them out of the range of regular troops
Their old weapon options are now 10 Pts cheaper than they were last edition (and their most powerful one is even cheaper than it is for normal squads in this edition)
They have a good selection of weapons now, so they can fill more roles
They have Plasma Grenades, which is great for that ill advised assault you weren't planning, but now must do to avoid them initiating their own assault

Cons:
They cost around 40% more, per model, than they did last edition, same also goes for the leader upgrade cost
You now are limited to 2 weapon options per 5 models, as oppossed to 4 options regardless of unit size in the previous edition
They still lack Relentless, Jet Packs or some similar rule to allow them to fire Heavy weapons on the move (although this is less of a problem now with all the new options they have)

Thanks in advance for any advice or opinions.

Cheers
Rowan/LSWSjr

The way I see it, the only good thing is that they moved to fast attack. The thing is, they provide firepower, but they are too expensive for the firepower they provide. At 22 points per model they are too expensive comparitively wehther they are used as jump special weapons or dedicated heavy weapons.

5 jump marines cost less points, can have 2 specials,(combi on sergeant) and are MARINES.
Toughness 3, 4+ save and 15 points to buy a blaster? The unit is junk.

For heavy weapons? 10 scourges before buying upgrades cost 220 points. At that point cost you've already purchased 2 ravagers..which are more mobile and put out MORE firepower and still cost less points.
Complete and utter garbage.

They appear to be far more useful than they were. The problem is they were utterly pointless before, thanks to the new codex now they are just a sub par/overcosted unit. You can't really make them decent tank hunters without taking a full unit, which pushes them in to the 'too expensive' category. Dark Eldar have poison to burn, so there doesn't seem to be much point loading them up as infantry/MC killers either.

Its one of those rare cases of GW fixing a unit, but only to break it in a different manner.

Scourges would be a fairly awesome choice if they were cheaper, I mean at 22 points I'd expect big things from them and not the anti infantry/MC they provide, the other infantry choices do it too effective already.

I'm not sure I agree with the comments that normal Dark Eldar units are just as good for killing MCs: if we're talking ranged troops then you have Kabalite Warriors (Troops) & Kabalite Trueborn (Elites) w/ Splinter Cannons and Splinter Rifles (just like the Scourges) and they're half the price of Scourges, but they also have half the movement range (in the movement phase), although you can always mount them on a Raider or Venom, but that also makes them a larger target, ultimately there's good and bad; and if we're talking melee troops then you have the Grotesques (Elites), Beastmasters w/ Clawed Fiends (Fast Attack), the Talos and the Cronos (both Heavy Support), all of these options are expensive, none of them are Troops, they're all small units and most of them are a bit unpredictable.

Another problem for Scourges I'll point out however is that they're competing with Beastmasters, Reavers and Hellions, all pretty good choices themselves.

Personally I'd outfit them with either Haywire Blasters, which are almost guaranteed to do something to vehicles; Heat Lances, which are great for Heavy Infantry, MCs or Vehicles (if they get close enough); or Splinter Cannons, which are good for MCs or Infantry.

Cheers
Rowan/LSWSjr

I would agree that they have improved a ton. But their cost is exorbitant. Ill be using my fast attack slots for reavers more likely.

Personaly i always take 7, and fit them for whatever they will face.

Nids, S-cannons. Guard Dark lances. And with the new rules, you do get less guns in smaller squads, but you get new ones aswell.

Lexx wrote:I would agree that they have improved a ton. But their cost is exorbitant. Ill be using my fast attack slots for reavers more likely.

I'll most likely have a full squad of Beastmaster w/ Khymera, Scourges w/ Haywire Blasters and Reavers (perhaps w/ Cluster Caltrops...), costly, but I like to move quickly and these guys will generally piss off my opponents to no end.

Cheers
Rowan/LSWSjr

I haven't really read the new DE codex besides a flip through in a store . . . but that base cost sounds awful, as does the restriction on weapon numbers.

Lets look at it like this: presumably people would want to use these as a static devestator-type squad that doesn't take HS choices; or as a mobile special weapons squad (probably deep striking a lot of the time).

I dunno all the weapon options, but I presume the main ones are dark lances and blasters (ie 18" assault dark lances) With both of those, the base model cost absolutely ruins the unit. Presumably if I want a full size devestator squad (where their mobility won't be used outside of DoW missions) I have to pay 220+weapons. And for a small special weapons squad, I need to pay 110+ weapons (for things that are actually worse deep striking weapons than meltaguns!)

I don't get the designers' reasoning here. These scourges are blatantly worse than devestators, let alone long fangs, as static troopers. They are obviously outclassed by sternguard, IG stormtroopers, chaos raptors or terminators, etc as drop troop special weapons carriers. What were they thinking? Why do T3 4+ save models cost this much? It's more than assault marines, as several people above me have pointed out.

I do hear they have assault 3 poisoned guns though. I suppose one big unit loaded with splinter cannons would make a good MC or infantry killing unit - but wouldn't a unit of warriors do nearly as well? I'm sure 20 warriors w/2 splinter cannons is cheaper than 10 scourges w/4, and would put out similar firepower while still scoring.

I'll read the codex properly before final judgment, but they do seem a bit gak, don't they?

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote: I'm sure 20 warriors w/2 splinter cannons is cheaper than 10 scourges w/4, and would put out similar firepower while still scoring.

It takes 3 Warriors at long range, 1.5 at short, to equal the firepower of a base Scourge. Scourges cost less than 3 Warriors and are more mobile with that firepower.

Yes, they aren't scoring, so that's a trade off. Also, 1 Scourge has 1 wound, and 3 Warriors have 3, but Scourges get a save most of the time.

It's all tradeoffs. Seems appropriately costed to me.

Temporis wrote:Personaly i always take 7, and fit them for whatever they will face.

Nids, S-cannons. Guard Dark lances. And with the new rules, you do get less guns in smaller squads, but you get new ones aswell.

I'm not a fan of list tailoring, so what would you put into an all comers list? Or would you even take them if you didn't know what you were facing?

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:I dunno all the weapon options, but I presume the main ones are dark lances and blasters...

They now have, from cheapest to most expensive (with nothing over 15 Pts), Shredders, Splinter Cannons, Haywire Blasters, Heat Lances, Blasters and Dark Lances, of these only the Dark Lance is Heavy and the rest are Assault, so being stationary is rarely required (I say rarely cause they pay less than normal for Dark Lances, so some folks might use them)

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:I do hear they have assault 3 poisoned guns though. I suppose one big unit loaded with splinter cannons would make a good MC or infantry killing unit - but wouldn't a unit of warriors do nearly as well? I'm sure 20 warriors w/2 splinter cannons is cheaper than 10 scourges w/4, and would put out similar firepower while still scoring.

The Splinter Cannon is now 36" and poisoned with 4 shots on the move or 6 shots if stationary, excellent for large squads and MCs (especially the fast ones). Price wise you're looking at minimum 56 Pts for 3 Kabalite Trueborn w/ 2 Splinter Cannons (Elites) or 100 Pts for 10 Kabalite Warriors w/ 1 Splinter Cannon (Troops) or 130 Pts for 5 Scourges w/ 2 Splinter Cannons (Fast Attack). Kabalite Trueborn do it cheaper (being under half the price at minimum), but are restricted to only 2 Splinter Cannons, have less mobility, weaker armour and no Invulnerable Save; Kabalite Warriors are still overall cheaper and have more models than the Scourges, but are restricted to 1 Splinter Cannon per 10 models and have all the same weaknesses as the Kabalite Trueborn. The thing with Scourges as I see them, is having the best chance for long term survival, sure they're not cheap, but they can take a Demolisher Cannon shot with at least some chance of survival, what Devastator, Sternguard, IG Special/Heavy Weapons Team, Chosen CSM, Chaos Havoc, Stormtrooper, Long Fang or Raptor squad can do that.

notabot187 wrote:I'm not a fan of list tailoring, so what would you put into an all comers list? Or would you even take them if you didn't know what you were facing?

Then you have two choices, which are both about the same cheap price: the first is Haywire Launchers which are 24" Str/AP 4 Assault 1 and if they hit vehicles they're treated like Haywire Grenades; and the second is Heat Lances which are 19" Str 6 AP 1 Lance & Melta. Haywire Launchers have longer range, are good for medium infantry and are pretty much guaranteed to shut down a vehicle every turn, making it easier for your heavier stuff to finish them off; or you could take the Heat Lances, which are great at killing heavy infantry but less useful againts vehicles unless you move them into assault range.


Cheers
Rowan/LSWSjr

The venom can have 2 splinter cannons. So you take kabalite warriors with 2 splinter cannons and put them in the venom.

scuddman wrote:The venom can have 2 splinter cannons. So you take kabalite warriors with 2 splinter cannons and put them in the venom.

Not a bad idea and I assume you meant Kabalite Trueborn, so that would be 121 Pts in total w/ 4 Splinter Cannons and a 5+ Invulnerable Save (for the Venom), and it's 9 Pts cheaper than the 5 Scourges w/ 2 Splinter Cannons. The only problem I can see with that is that it's a big juicy target and if the Venom goes down then its passengers will be easy prey (that is if they're not killed by the destroyed Venom).

Worth considering as an alternative though... (not for my army though, I've already filled my Elites slots)

Cheers
Rowan/LSWSjr


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing I thought of in response to the Kabalite Trueborn on a Venom Vs Scourges, was that in the minimum 5 Scourges w/ 2 Splinter Cannons the other 3 Scourges would still be armed with Shardcarbines which are poisoned (4+) 18" AP5 Assault 3 weapons, which are almost as good as the extra 2 Splinter Cannons the KT&V build would have and this is definately something else to consider...

Cheers
Rowan/LSWSjr

Temporis wrote:Personaly i always take 7, and fit them for whatever they will face.

Nids, S-cannons. Guard Dark lances. And with the new rules, you do get less guns in smaller squads, but you get new ones aswell.

so you tailor your lists .... thats cool lol.

MORE Useful?
Yes.

Useful in General?
Almost but not quite... :

Deep Striking Heat Lances is pretty useful.

DarknessEternal wrote:Deep Striking Heat Lances is pretty useful.

Except that that unit will die. Jumping out of a venom and shooting 4 blasters from 18" away with trueborn is (IMO) better anti-tank than S6 AP1 with 2D6 penetration at 9" range, and you will not find yourself dead the next turn (assuming you jump into cover to avoid being shot to death)

Impending doom never stopped suicide tank killers before. Also, Blasters < Heat Lances at killing tanks. And the Trueborn/Venom cost more points.

Also, everything in the DE codex dies when shot at. Not like that 4+ cover save would help since it's the same save Scourges get.

I'm sorry... Haywire Grenade Launchers are 24 inch range, str 4/ap4 ASSAULT?! 1

and haywire I believe is 1 nothing 2-5 glance and 6 pen?

That's pretty amazing to me actually.

I think the heat lance is better on the Reaver. Move 12, shoot it, fall back 6 inches. Where the scourge with it get's wacked, the bike is now at 15 inches, outside standard assault range.

DarknessEternal wrote:Impending doom never stopped suicide tank killers before. Also, Blasters < Heat Lances at killing tanks. And the Trueborn/Venom cost more points.

Also, everything in the DE codex dies when shot at. Not like that 4+ cover save would help since it's the same save Scourges get.

Yes, I know, Suicide Tank Killers will die. Thats why they have that name. But what I'm saying is that you dont have to settle for a 90 point suicide unit of 3 guys that WILL die 99.99% of the time. Instead you can take a unit of 4 trueborn in a venom that will fly up first turn and unleash 4 Blaster shots at a safe range, accompanied by a cheap Haemy which will provide them with a FNP save and drop a Webway portal. If you want to a) get close enough to rapid fire or b) assault me, you will somehow have to maneuver around my portal (pretty much you need an open topped fast transport and fleet or you are not assaulting me) and then even if you do get close enough to me you will take a Cronos or a unit of Incubi to the face next turn.

Lets compare advantages:

Trueborn in Venom with Blasters
Pros:
Can fire first turn instead of needing to deepstrike, also more reliable as they don't
Higher Strength Weapons at a Longer Range
With 4 shots, it is very hard to fail. However I would know from DS Ironclads with TL meltaguns and Drop pods and other stuff played against me, that 2 shots is never enough to guarentee an effect every time.
4+ Cover (3+ if you go to ground) followed by 4+ FNP from haemy and getting screened by Impassable portal almost guarentees survival so they can get even more shots turns 2 (and possibly 3)
Also, that makes them NOT a free kill point for the enemy.
Can double as MC hunters vs. Tyranids, Eldar, MUCH better than the scourges (4 shots S8 >>>>>>>> 2 shots S6)
Venom can screen units, is easy to hide behind terrain, and shoots 12 poison shots at 24" after moving 12"
Blasters can actually have a decent chance of hurting C'Tan and can glance the monolith, whereas Scourge suicide is almost 100% useless against necrons.


Scourges Deepstriking with Heat Lances
Are much cheaper
(Lesser Argument) Take up a FA slot, so dont compete against Incubi and Grotesques (Idk if you would want to max out Elites with those anyway...)
Roll 2D6 against Armour within 9"
Are AP1
Deepstrike, so they can get at angles where the enemy might not get saves.
Can be used as cheap screens for units (though IDK how well 3 guys could do it, and they'll probably be shot down anyway.

I think I've made my point