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The rules for Pedro Kantor suggest that even if his Chapter tactics arn't used your Sternguard are scoring simply because of his presence.

under his Chapter Tactics "..and your Sternguard Veterans gain the Hold the Line special rule.

"Hold the Line! if your army includes Pedro Kantor your Sternguard Veteran squads are scoring units"

now IF hold the line simply said, "any unit with this rule becomes scoring" then you obviously would need to use Pedros Chapter tactics, but the rule in and of itself says Sternguard in an Army that has Pedro in it become scoring. it doesn't specifically say you must use Pedro's Chapter tactics.

Note that Pedro himself does not Have "Hold the Line"; therefore just having pedro does not make Sternguard Scoring, you MUST exchange for his Chapter Tactics to give Sterguard "Hold the Line" and thus make them Scoring.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Note that Pedro himself does not Have "Hold the Line"; therefore just having pedro does not make Sternguard Scoring, you MUST exchange for his Chapter Tactics to give Sterguard "Hold the Line" and thus make them Scoring.

actually he does. his page entry is his offical stat line, NOT the Army list entry.

Neither states he has it; it is merely detailed there(this is known because right after it says "Sterngaurd veteran squads gain the Hold the Line! special rule", it also says "detailed below" and that is all in one sentence, so: "Sterngaurd veteran squads gain the Hold the Line! special rule detailed below.")

Grey Templar wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Note that Pedro himself does not Have "Hold the Line"; therefore just having pedro does not make Sternguard Scoring, you MUST exchange for his Chapter Tactics to give Sterguard "Hold the Line" and thus make them Scoring.

actually he does. his page entry is his offical stat line, NOT the Army list entry.

The problem that you run into by saying it is his official stat line.

First his statline does not include his points cost or that he has a power fist. This means that you technically couldn't play him without using the "unofficial" statline in the army list, meaning that they work hand in hand. This means that you also have to refer to the army list section for his rules, and he doesn't have Hold the Line! listed in his rules. This means that he does not have an ability called Hold the Line!, but in Chapter tactics there is the qualifier for activating it. In the end it boils down to being a circular argument, but I personally would say (and would hazard a guess that it is RAW) that because in the list he does not have it, meaning it is an inactive (because it's not on page 130) ability until you use chapter tactics to meet the prerequisite for using it. My two cents on it.

You actually need Both the Armylist and their descriptive text pages.

Otherwise you wind up with lots of non-rules(pretty much every special rule in pretty much every entry); and other strangeness such as the Master of the Forge only getting 1 attack(if any) from his Servo-harness(his Armylist entry omitted his servo-arm, which only raises more questions since the harness needs the servo arm to begin with; how do you add to what doesn't exist?).

but like i already pointed out; "hold the Line" is a continuation of the Chapter tactics rule. They should have put the 2 into a box though, or they could have left out the: "if your army includes Pedro Kantor" part, since the sternguard cannot gain the rule unless you include him to begin with.

In order to have Hold the line you must have Pedros version of Chapter tactics, the same applies to Hestan and the benefits that his version of chapter tactics confers. You must choose which one applies. They may not both apply since you must choose between them. Seems pretty clear cut.

You must have Chapter Tactics for Kantor active in order for Sternguards to have HtL!

If you dont have HtL! you are unable to read the rule stating the presence of Kantor makes you scoring, as you have no permission to state this applies to you.

Not at all circular: absent his Chapter Tactics you do not have HtL, and absent HtL you have nothing stating you score, so you dont.

^ The rules do not state you may not read a rule because it does not apply.

The rule says if you include Pedro in the army you:

Exchange Combat Tactics for Stubborn

AND

All Sternguard get HtL

Doesn't matter whether PC has HtL or not, since he's not Sternguard I wouldn't expect him to.

Jaon wrote:^ The rules do not state you may not read a rule because it does not apply.

But they dont give you permission to apply the rule, so you cant.

It doesnt say I cant isnt an argument

Gwar is the only person qualified to answer this.

Hmm, that's funny I thought this was "You Make Da Call" not "Gwar Make Da Call."

I must say there has been no deliberating answer.

I am making the call, and the call I am making is that you're using "deliberating" incorrectly.

Also, in order to get the benefits of Hold the Line, one must take Pedro's Chapter Tactics.

Why?

Because the rules explain how one gets access to Hold the Line. One gets access by taking Pedro's Chapter Tactics.

There is precedent for this all over the rules, but here's one from memory (so it might not be an exact quote, but you'll get the idea).

Blood Angel Sanguinary Guard can take Death Masks. In their unit description the Death Mask rules are explained. But that doesn't mean they have Death Masks. On the contrary, they must spend points to buy Death Masks, at which point the rule applies to them.

Simply looking at the rule for Death Masks, you wouldn't know that they need to be purchased, but when you look at the full rules for Sanguinary Guard, this becomes clear.

The same is true for Hold the Line, relative to Kantor's Chapter Tactics.

You would be correct HOWEVER...

under HTL's description, which is completely seperate from Chapter tactics, it says you simply need to have Pedro in your army. it does not mention Chapter tactics in its description.


i guess i will PM Gwar and see what he says. he may be just 1 person, but i belive he is more qualified then any of us(including myself)

under HTL's description, which is completely seperate from Chapter tactics, it says you simply need to have Pedro in your army. it does not mention Chapter tactics in its description.

Right, but what I'm saying is that there are a LOT of rules that you have to do something to get access to (pay points, buy wargear, take another option), which don't say in the rule itself what you have to do to get them.

That's why I use the Death Mask example. There are many others. But the Death Mask rule is just sitting there in the Sanguinary Guard rule block. It says what Death Masks do for you. But that doesn't mean that Sanguinary Guard automatically have Death Masks. Just being in the rules block for a unit doesn't mean you get the rule.

I don't have the book with me, but it would be interesting to check the "Special Rules" for Pedro. If Hold the Line is listed, then I might be tempted to agree that he gets it without using his Chapter Tactics. But if he just has Chapter Tactics, then he'd have to use his Chapter Tactics in order to get it.

Phryxis wrote:I don't have the book with me, but it would be interesting to check the "Special Rules" for Pedro. If Hold the Line is listed, then I might be tempted to agree that he gets it without using his Chapter Tactics. But if he just has Chapter Tactics, then he'd have to use his Chapter Tactics in order to get it.

It is not listed in his summary, only listed with its rules in his entry.

It's pretty clear from the way that the book is written that the specific entry for Hold the Line is just an explanation for what it does. The entry above under Chapter Tactics says quite specifically that Pedro's Chapter Tactics gives the army Stubborn and Hold the Line (with no explanation of what that is). So it's self evident, to me, that to be able to use Hold the Line I must use Pedro's Chapter Tactics and give up any other Chapter Tactics that are available. All of this can be found on p.90 C:SM.

Not to mention that HTL! is not listed as a special rule in the army list section either.

kirsanth wrote:

Phryxis wrote:I don't have the book with me, but it would be interesting to check the "Special Rules" for Pedro. If Hold the Line is listed, then I might be tempted to agree that he gets it without using his Chapter Tactics. But if he just has Chapter Tactics, then he'd have to use his Chapter Tactics in order to get it.

It is not listed in his summary, only listed with its rules in his entry.

Not only is it only listed in his summery(which would not negate it as his rule); but actually reading his chaptertactics beyond the word "Line", in hold the line; gives you are answer:

"-special rule detailed below." This comes immediately after the part that tells you sterguards get Hold the Line. So the rest of the quote would be: "..and your Sternguard Veterans gain the Hold the Line special rule detailed below."

Grey templar upon rereading your OP, I see what the problem is; you got to the end of the line that the first part of the sentence was written on, and the sentence itself made sense as a complete sentence. However the last 2 words of the sentence continues after the linebreak in the next line of the column, as does the punctuation point that actually tells you to stop reading the sentence. After all "detailed below." is not a complete sentence, nor did they capitalize the D in detailed.

Hold the line is stated within the same paragraph that Begins and ends with descripitons of how chapter tactics works. There is no question that without Pedros chapter tactics you do not gain access to this special rule.

My own personal take on stretching any interpretation of a rule to its furthest degree to gain any edge possible in a game.
Beyond this you can ask yourself. What is the intent of the rule and why was it written within the context of chapter tactics. The intent was that only one version of chapter tactics could be applied to an army at any one time. To attempt to bypass the game designers intent by seeking any possible, no matter how farfetched; interpretation of the wording that allows you to combine chapter tactics against the very intent of the rule is an effort to utilize a loophole to gain competative edge. In a tournament setting i would involve a judge because this obviously seeks to gain advantage by manipulating the rules in a manner that not only defies their clearly stated intent but runs counter to what a honest contest entails. In short. Not good game play or spirit. You should win based on your good game play not ability to stretch english to the furthest level possible.
I understand that RAW lead to conflicts with the game designers intent because they do not spend hours looking for loopholes in their writting and making every effort to linguisitically bolster the rules or their codex so that no other possible interpretation of the rules was possible. This would no doubt lead to codex that were two times their current number of pages and it would increase their produciton time and cost for us. Most of the time you can simply ask yourself. Is this Janky. Is what i am doing Cheesy. How would i feel about my oponent trying to make an equally far fetched case. Yea.

sennacherib wrote:Hold the line is stated within the same paragraph that Begins and ends with descripitons of how chapter tactics works. There is no question that without Pedros chapter tactics you do not gain access to this special rule.

Not true, there is a Space between Chapter tactics, and Hold the Line, both are also in Bold Face. they are 2 seperate instances of special rules; but the finishing of the sentence in Chapter Tactics tells us that the Hold the Line Special rule is placed here for the decription of what that rule means and does.

It is worth noting the other issue/Problem with Kantor and his special rules is that unlike every other SC with Chapter Tactics Kantor's Special rule: "Inspiring Presence" comes after Chapter Tactics, not before(Look at Lysander and Shrike to see what I mean). This of course is mitigated by "Inspiring Presence" being listed as one of his special rules.

My own personal take on stretching any interpretation of a rule to its furthest degree to gain any edge possible in a game.
Beyond this you can ask yourself. What is the intent of the rule and why was it written within the context of chapter tactics. The intent was that only one version of chapter tactics could be applied to an army at any one time. To attempt to bypass the game designers intent by seeking any possible, no matter how farfetched; interpretation of the wording that allows you to combine chapter tactics against the very intent of the rule is an effort to utilize a loophole to gain competative edge. In a tournament setting i would involve a judge because this obviously seeks to gain advantage by manipulating the rules in a manner that not only defies their clearly stated intent but runs counter to what a honest contest entails. In short. Not good game play or spirit. You should win based on your good game play not ability to stretch english to the furthest level possible.
I understand that RAW lead to conflicts with the game designers intent because they do not spend hours looking for loopholes in their writting and making every effort to linguisitically bolster the rules or their codex so that no other possible interpretation of the rules was possible. This would no doubt lead to codex that were two times their current number of pages and it would increase their produciton time and cost for us. Most of the time you can simply ask yourself. Is this Janky. Is what i am doing Cheesy. How would i feel about my oponent trying to make an equally far fetched case. Yea.

We do not know what the Games designer's intent was. We can infer that they mean one thing(via the Chapter Tactic wording), but for all we know they may mean to have "Hold the line" be a base Special rule for Kantor and just forgot to put it in his armylist(much like the a-fore-mentioned Servo arm on the Master of the Forge)

In all honesty Proper Wording would only lead to slightly smaller Drawings in the Descriptions; and less empty Space in the Armylists. the rulebook would require even less format change considering most of the corrections+Clarifications there would be simple word-replacement(with some notable exceptions).

Just to be clear what I'm talking about, start by looking at p130 of C:SM, which is where Pedro's rules are.

There's a section for all these sorts of army list entries called "Special Rules." This is where any rules beyond the basics are listed. If it's not there, the model doesn't have it (though it may be able to purchase it in some way).

If you look at Pedro's Special Rules, he has Inspiring Presence, and he also has Chapter Tactics. He does NOT have Hold the Line.

He gets Hold the Line as a function of exercising his option to use Chapter Tactics.

So, why does he have Inspiring Presence? Because it's in his Special Rules. Why doesn't he have Hold the Line? Because it's not in his Special Rules. But Chapter Tactics IS in his Special Rules, and that gives him (and his army) Stubborn and Hold the Line.

Furthermore, compare this to the example of the Sanguinary Guard. In the "rules" section for Sanguinary Guard, there's a paragraph about the Death Mask. It's in their rules, but they don't actually have it in their Special Rules or Wargear.

The way they get it, is by purchasing it with points.

It's pretty clearcut.

Phryxis wrote:He gets Hold the Line as a function of exercising his option to use Chapter Tactics.

Everything Else you said was quite true. This, however is not.

Pedro does not have hold the Line(as you said), and Pedro himself never Gets hold the line. His Chapter Tactics gives it to Sternguard squads, not to himself.

Based on the Wording of Hold the Line it would have been better if the codex stated Pedro gets it when you use his Chapter tactics, but that just goes back to what I said earlier.

It does say that it HtL is a part of his Chapter tactics. I don't see how you can't see that. As to the paragraph detailing HtL just look at the Chapter Tactics paragraph. Without going to the next paragraph tell me what HtL does. That's why that lone paragraph exists to tell you what you get when you use his Chapter Tactics.

It specifically states that you swap Combat Tactics for Stubborn then adds that your Sternguard get HtL. They are two separate benefits. Unlike Vulkan's rules that state that all his benefits are swapped out for Combat Tactics.

Yet both require you to be using his Chapter Tactics.

If you are not using his Chapter Tactics then nothing under the Chapter Tactics applies to you. Including HtL!

Your sterngaurd do not recieve Hold the line unless you are using chapter tactics. Hold the line is stated in the same scentence as stubborn and you only get stubborn if you use chapter tactics.
It is clearly stated in the chapter tactics heading that your sterngaurd recieve HtL as part of chapter tactics.

Huh, after re-reading I agree. I was confusing the wording between Chapter Tactics and Combat Tactics. I thought it involved swapping Combat Tactics for the Stubborn but it seems the entire paragraph falls under the realm of Chapter Tactics.

Shows that I do not play Loyalists...

You would be cooler if you did STD...

This is a perfectly good post...why ruin it with Gwar getting involved. And on that note this is simple. Pedro's stuff works the same way as everyone elses. Sternguard do not get HTL without Pedro. End of Story. There are rules in this game that are hard enough as it is...why make this one more difficult.

Bikeninja wrote:You would be cooler if you did STD...
.

Ahhh.. but I do paint the hell out of them don't I?

I agree that Pedro must use his Chapter tactics for SG to get HtL. People are using semantics in attempt to get around the actual intent of the rule which is quite clear.