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If I were to start a black templar army, slowly building my forces of the imperium, what style of play would the general public suggest?


And why, please.




Thanks. I'll purge a couple heretics for you.

After months of playing against them, I picked up my first loss against space marines against a drop pod templar list. Sure, this was 4th ed days, but being able to show up anywhere and then your opponent giving you free movement just by shooting at them meant that I had virtually no time whatsoever to shoot at them before they were in hand to hand with my tanks and stuff.

Assuming that they still get this free movement rule, I'd only really consider drop pods or footslogging (I'm under the impression they get huge squads that they can slog across the field).

Footslogging is the way to go. Drop pods just leave your guys too vulnerable (as they will likely be armed with CCW and Power Weapons). BT dont get options like sternguard to maximise the effectiveness of a deep strike.

Running in rhinos can work, as can footslogging. 10 Initiates + 5 neophytes acts as a meatshield for your close combat units.

Raider spam is effective, but only at higher point costed games.

I'm actually interested in this as well.

Footslogging is better than going mechanized? Why is that I wonder?

Voted raider spam. A Land Raider Crusader loaded up with 16 Power armor close combat marines is pretty iconic Black Templar ass-kickery.

And dont BT still pay like 50 points per drop pod? No thanks.

There are advantages to footslogging a BT army;

1) Larger squads (neophytes are worse than initiates, but 5 of them = the same cost as a rhino, plus you don't lose the killpoint when they die)

2) Righteous Zeal - If you have a Marshal in the army (a MUST for footsloggers), everyone is L10. Then when you take your RZ test, 9 times out of 10 you will pass, moving your foot units D6 inches (re-rollable with crusader seals) towards the nearest enemy unit in THEIR turn

3) When you are close to the opponent, you dont have to worry about disembarking and not assaulting - you can do this as soon as you get there

Thats the main points. Not that mech BT doesn't have its good points (LRC spam being one of them), this is just the good attributes of a footslogger army.

I'm considering foot slogging just because I'm low on cash right now and don't want to have to buy all those transports, but its good to know that its actually a viable strategy.

footslogging templars works because when they pass their morale tests, they run AT you instead of standing still. so you can either ignore the 3 20 man units charging across the board toward you because your are just helping them get to you faster, or shoot at them and wait for a footslogging army to charge you on turn 3 (turn 2 if you deployed like an idiot). not to mention they are re-rolling misses in CC

IMO raider spam is still better. Templars really begin to shine at 2000 and above because its easier to fit more LRCs in the army without handcuffing yourself to that strategy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

scubasteve04 wrote:Voted raider spam. A Land Raider Crusader loaded up with 16 Power armor close combat marines is pretty iconic Black Templar ass-kickery.

And dont BT still pay like 50 points per drop pod? No thanks.

30 for pods. and BT only get 15 power armored marines into an LRC

I find it difficult to fit multiple LRC's in a list smaller than 2000 points, but there's no denying its a strong strategy.

One option might be to have 2+ land raiders filled with crusader squads, led by chaplains or captains. Then fill the remaining points with deep striking terminators w/double assault cannons.

Basically I don't think BT are really as good as vanilla marines (tons of stuff got points breaks and such in the 5th edition codex) and BT obviously can't match SW or BA for overall close combat prowess anymore. I would identify the things BT can still do which no other marines can, and form a strategy around that. Obviously any army which takes lots of bikes/jump packs, transports etc is going to be at a disadvantage since those options became so much cheaper in newer books, for example.

I dunno, I think that BT's are very scary in close combat. Sword brethern are most definately on a par with sangunary guard.

liam0404 wrote:I dunno, I think that BT's are very scary in close combat. Sword brethern are most definately on a par with sangunary guard.

They do get furious charge, which is nice. Lot of S5 I5 on the charge.

Yeah, and standard troops can ALL have BP + CCW. That means a unit of 10 on the charge gets 30 re-rollable attacks.

liam0404 wrote:Yeah, and standard troops can ALL have BP + CCW. That means a unit of 10 on the charge gets 30 re-rollable attacks.

Synergy, emperor's champion for preferred enemy, Marshall for Ld10. Its not list of its just good assault power.

liam0404 wrote:There are advantages to footslogging a BT army;

1) Larger squads (neophytes are worse than initiates, but 5 of them = the same cost as a rhino, plus you don't lose the killpoint when they die)

2) Righteous Zeal - If you have a Marshal in the army (a MUST for footsloggers), everyone is L10. Then when you take your RZ test, 9 times out of 10 you will pass, moving your foot units D6 inches (re-rollable with crusader seals) towards the nearest enemy unit in THEIR turn

3) When you are close to the opponent, you dont have to worry about disembarking and not assaulting - you can do this as soon as you get there

Thats the main points. Not that mech BT doesn't have its good points (LRC spam being one of them), this is just the good attributes of a footslogger army.

I would agree with most everything you said except for the marshal, I think having 2 chaplains (one in either 20 man crusader squad if you have that many crusader squads) is the way to go, they allow you to make your zeal tests (for their attacked squads) always and can allow you to move towards any enemy unit which helps a ton if your opponent wants to kite you around.

But then again this^ is just the opinion of some guy on the internet (albeit one who has washed with soap)

Also I know I sound like captain obvious and the you already knew all that, but it is for the benefit of the OP

Thanks, all.

Remember that Chaplains synergize well with footsloggers as well, with their Cenobyte Servitors adding Zeal distance, and making the squad Fearless (so they auto-pass their zeal tests).

I'd start with footsloggers, but Land Raider spam is really good at 1500+. (Hard to pull off at 1500, easier as the points go up).

Pods can work if your opponent isn't setup to react to so many marines arriving all at once. It's also better against armies whose units are worse 1-on-1 against your marines. It has trouble against elite armies like Daemons where you need to have numbers or good shooting on your side.

Rhino rush is terrible for BTs, as we pay a useless premium for our rhinos, although our Smoke Launchers are worth the extra 3pts.

My experience with Footslogging is it has a rough time dealing with gunline and fast armies (mech/jetbike Eldar and DE). The Eldar will outmaneuver the army and a smart gun line player will know not to shoot up multiple squads and will try to wipe out single squads in one phase of shooting to minimize the impact of your bonus movement.

Ma55ter_fett wrote:

liam0404 wrote:There are advantages to footslogging a BT army;

1) Larger squads (neophytes are worse than initiates, but 5 of them = the same cost as a rhino, plus you don't lose the killpoint when they die)

2) Righteous Zeal - If you have a Marshal in the army (a MUST for footsloggers), everyone is L10. Then when you take your RZ test, 9 times out of 10 you will pass, moving your foot units D6 inches (re-rollable with crusader seals) towards the nearest enemy unit in THEIR turn

3) When you are close to the opponent, you dont have to worry about disembarking and not assaulting - you can do this as soon as you get there

Thats the main points. Not that mech BT doesn't have its good points (LRC spam being one of them), this is just the good attributes of a footslogger army.

I would agree with most everything you said except for the marshal, I think having 2 chaplains (one in either 20 man crusader squad if you have that many crusader squads) is the way to go, they allow you to make your zeal tests (for their attacked squads) always and can allow you to move towards any enemy unit which helps a ton if your opponent wants to kite you around.

If you are running pure foot slogger, ie no vehicles, you need the Marshal to keep your other units in line. A footslogger army is built around a core of 2 or 3 big Crusader squads with characters in each to keep them moving but any ancillary units like Assault marines and HW teams will benefit immensely from the Ld buff. In the case of HW crusaders they really need Ld 10 to keep from going stupid in the shooting phase. Of course if you run triple LasPreds or Las-Missile Dreads you can get away with it.

That being said I used to think Chaplains were a waste in BT army, but now I've come around to thinking they're awesome. Giving Neophytes the ability to re-roll is huge and makes the squad even more choppy that and choosing which unit to zeal towards.

Anyone else use Zeal to deny combo charges? I've scored massacres because I've Zeal'd a squad out of charge range and left 2 or 3 of my opponents units flapping in the breeze.

Foot slogger works great but take the chaplains with three servitors, that first turn losing a neophyte, and running off the board is gay.

And actually, avantgarde I beat dashofpepper by doing exactly that, the chaplain lets you scurry in any direction, so as long as you get shot you decide exactly whom charges what.

As for the army composition, two-three big squads, champion, chaplain, chaplain, then some heavy hitter unit like an LRC with termies is a great way to start, to take out the backline we have the trilas pred, MM speeders, or the sword brethren with infiltrate/outflank

Foot slogger is the way to go IMHO. The rhinos in the BT codex are overpriced, and the Drop Pods arrive by reserve rules. So, you won't get to drop half of them on the first turn.

LordWaffles wrote:Foot slogger works great but take the chaplains with three servitors, that first turn losing a neophyte, and running off the board is gay.

And actually, avantgarde I beat dashofpepper by doing exactly that, the chaplain lets you scurry in any direction, so as long as you get shot you decide exactly whom charges what.

As for the army composition, two-three big squads, champion, chaplain, chaplain, then some heavy hitter unit like an LRC with termies is a great way to start, to take out the backline we have the trilas pred, MM speeders, or the sword brethren with infiltrate/outflank

Technically the chaplain allows you to zeal towards any enemy unit, NOT any direction. It is still a good tactic though.

Never forget that good old 5man HW/SW squad. You still can do it as BT. Add a LRC full of FC dual LC asstermies with the Emperor's champion and you're fine ^^

Any more opinions on the usefulness of raider-based armies?

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:One option might be to have 2+ land raiders filled with crusader squads, led by chaplains or captains. Then fill the remaining points with deep striking terminators w/double assault cannons.

Basically I don't think BT are really as good as vanilla marines (tons of stuff got points breaks and such in the 5th edition codex) and BT obviously can't match SW or BA for overall close combat prowess anymore. I would identify the things BT can still do which no other marines can, and form a strategy around that. Obviously any army which takes lots of bikes/jump packs, transports etc is going to be at a disadvantage since those options became so much cheaper in newer books, for example.

What?!?!?!?! So the Accept Any Challenge vow on a bunch of lightning claw armed terminators with Furious Charge can't match... what? Again, check in with my buddy swordbrotherjim about that one...

prussia59 wrote:Any more opinions on the usefulness of raider-based armies?

Well, personally I really enjoy Raider-heavy lists. Unfortunately, they're difficult to put together at the 1500 points level. Above that, and you've got a solid army without too many drawbacks, especially if you throw some points at giving your Land Raiders Blessed Hull. That way, you've really got an all-comers list that can laugh in the face of DE lists relying on Dark Lances, Eldar lists utilizing BL Wraithlords, and the various other ways (Blood Lance, Warp Lance) that armies try to remove your AV14 advantage.

As long as you prioritize (aka kill Melta and S10 first, then work your way down), it's very powerful and not exceedingly difficult to play. Also, if you're finicky about moving 60+ models every turn, Land Raider lists are generally much less model heavy. (And lower on Kill Points too).

Too many Rhino Rushes out there for the moment. Drop pods are the way to go. (joking.)
Rhino rushes are good but they are sorta unrealiable sometimes. Same with foot sloggers. Really matters on what type of game you are trying to play. If you want to go on defense Foot Sloggers. Heavy Assualt Land Raider Rush and Drop pod assualt.

Sloggin' Hordes gets you the most attacks per point. It also lets you allocate wounds efficiently (ever see the look on someone's face when his lascannon nails your neophyte?). BT Horde can work, especially because you can cheapen your squads by leaving off things like grenades and just squeezing in a ton of models (I don't find assault grenades to be a necessity, seeing as mainly troops that stand around in cover are rubbish in cc). Problem is that current IG can occasionally just shoot your entire army off the board before you get into cc. And that it means forgoing all heavy support IIRC.

MekanobSamael wrote:Sloggin' Hordes gets you the most attacks per point. It also lets you allocate wounds efficiently (ever see the look on someone's face when his lascannon nails your neophyte?). BT Horde can work, especially because you can cheapen your squads by leaving off things like grenades and just squeezing in a ton of models (I don't find assault grenades to be a necessity, seeing as mainly troops that stand around in cover are rubbish in cc). Problem is that current IG can occasionally just shoot your entire army off the board before you get into cc. And that it means forgoing all heavy support IIRC.

Generally that's why podding dreadnoughts or Trilas predators are needed to slag the enemy heavy armour, leaving only a sea of flailing gribblies for your horde of psychotic, genetically engineered super soldiers to omnomnom to their double-hearts' content.

Yes, generally one should support a horde with such weapons. The trilas pred is a good decision for this because it can stand all the way at the rear and away from scary enemy meltaguns that ruin its day. The LR is alright for this, but I'd prefer the predator.